Club Triumph

I think I've just had the worst experience anyone has had buying a Spitfire. On the test drive the car had a slight whine in the gearbox and the seller stated all the electrics were working perfectly.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1975-Triumph-1500-Spitfire-in-Old-English-White-/362441207013?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=4%252F2R8GfGq095sYGebnIbeBI7fSk%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc

However, on delivery, the car was making a rattling noise when the clutch was released, which the seller stated was because the car was sitting for a while and would subside after the car was driven a few times (rusty release bearing - can't believe I took his word for it). However after going out in the car, the gearbox noise was much more pronounced and the clutch release noise was still present (if not louder). The horn was also not working...

Is there anything can I do about this? The car was listed as sold as seen with no warranty implied but it really wasn't delivered as seen (or described verbally)... The car was delivered in the first week of October and I've been rather busy since then so have not had time to chase things, despite contacting the seller and getting a different story. After dismissing my complaint he ghosted me. This was on the 13th of October a little over a week after buying the car.

To make matters worse I bought the car because I somehow heroically dinged it on the test drive (hill start combined with pedal confusion from driving forklift trucks resulted in the car falling back into a tow bar which damaged the rear light assembly) I tried to do the decent thing by agreeing to buy it.

I realise that I am quite at fault here for the calamity on the test drive and not personally checking the electrics, but has anyone had a similar experience and got somewhat the better of it?

In any case, I'm planning to sell the car in spring at a loss... Another important life lesson, I suppose.

Ummm , sorry to say I think you don't have a leg to stand on. Car looks good in the pictures and its MOT history is very good to be honest with just a few niggles. A gearbox fix and a new clutch and I think you would be nearly there.A rattling noise with the clutch released is either an input shaft problem or a driven plate damper spring problem in my professional opinion.

anyhow i hope you sort it. 

Dave

I agree with David, car looks very good, get the gearbox out and see what is amiss.

How bad was the damage to the rear panel?

Looks like a private sale, so I don't think you have any chance with the seller.

The car does look half decent (jury is out on the white gearstick gaitor!), so don't be disappointed. Minor electrical issues are cimmonplace and usually a matter of going through connections to find the iffy one. In the case of the horn it could be the "pencil" behind the horn-push. All normal stuff with these cars.

The gearbox whine is likely to be general wear, probably a bearing. If test driven with the roof down such noises are more difficult to hear, or rather with the roof up everything is noisier in the cabin.

Spend a few quid getting the gearbox sorted, the clutch noise can get done at the same time. Then you should have a very good car. Why would you sell it? I presume you bought a spitfire because you wanted one, and this one must have been the best you went to see. Honestly, buying old cars is not like buying brand new, there is always something.... even on newly restored cars.  (ie an immaculate, show winning GT6. regularly broke down. Turns out the brand new when fitted loom has a fault, and power to the coil would sometimes drop. Took ages to find that...)

Most importantly, find the local Triumph group, and actually pop along, make some friends and get some advice. If you are local to Sussex, I know somebody who is very handy at fixing gearboxes...

Its hard to see how the seller could have pulled a fast one with the gearbox/clutch noise as I cant see how he could reduce it just long enough to sell the car. Im guessing that you went along to look at it without being 100% sold on the idea but had to buy it after the shunt and now arent so keen.

I would stick with the car a bit as classics can take a while to get used to given that cars have advanced a lot in 40yrs and meanwhile you can decide what the next step is going to be (repair-sell, repair-keep or sell as is)......  

Agree with Colin and Dave.

You purchased the car with a correct seller disclaimer though on the odd occasion when I sell nowadays I always use 'Tried tested and approved and sold with no warranty implied or expressed' but your sale disclaimer is more or less that.  The only way out would possibly have been if this was a Trade sale but even then difficult.

Damaging on the test drive is the sellers problem - he must have know the risk so not really your obligation to buy.  I expect you were getting so wound up in your own mind about the damage you did not listen to it properly.

You will have to get the car sorted to sell on so why not do that and see if you still feel negative about it.  Sorting a car out has the magical effect of making you feel it is now wanted!

MUT

The rattling noise may well be the spring disintegration on the friction disc....ask me how I know!

As regards the sale, my opinion is that you really have no argument against the seller.

With these cars ,you really need to have someone in attendance that has a good knowledge of them

As advised ,go to a local Triumph meeting  and get some (semi) professional advice and take it from there.........and then maybe enjoy the car 

Having a look at the photos now, I am sure that they are over a year old. The pitting on the chromework is more noticeable and also the veneer on the dash is fading at the sides, which is not present on the photos. I was told the car came with some replacement veneer, but this was never received...

Additionally, the seller told me that he was using inline fuel filters (plastic transparent one in place before the mechanical fuel pump) and had cleaned the fuel tank out. Unfortunately now that fuel filter is full of rust, and I'm fairly certain that some of it has made it's way into the carbs because the idle can be a little unstable once the car has warmed up.

There's also no evidence in the paperwork for the new parts that he had claimed to have fitted in the listing. Additional electrical faults include the engine temperature gauge not working (although the car hasn't overheated yet).

I should have walked away, left my details after the shunt damage and typed up a thread on this forum for advice on the day...

Oh well..

Back to basics....do you know anything about these cars?

Have you any mechanical experience?

Do you want to get this car roadworthy?

The thing is, that you are explaining some things that are quite common on cars of this age

They are not modern MX5 type sports cars they are a sports car of an era past and have to be cared for regularly as they are quite aged

To some ,the mentioned `faults` are quite common and easily rectified

If you have not had any previous experience on these cars it may seem daunting, so you need to gain knowledge from current owners

Evening Michael,

You have my sympathy, you give the impression of a man full of regret! Old cars can be depressing, especially in the winter months. 

Not wishing to seem like we're all on the seller's side but: chrome always looks much better in photographs! It's very difficult for your average digital camera to capture accurately. I discovered this when selling some tatty chrome wheels which looked unrealistically fantastic in all the photos I took. 

Rusty fuel - he may well have cleaned out the tank but if the car isn't used much then it will keep rusting. I suffer from a rusty tank in one of my cars, and the fuel filter needs changing fairly often. I would keep an open mind about an uneven tickover, there are more likely culprits than rust particles getting through the filter. I would give the seller kudos for mentioning the rusty tank and filters in the first place. 

Whereabouts are you? If there's someone else off here in your area it would probably be good to get a neutral inspection and 2nd opinion, things might not be as bad as they appear!

Agree with the others - it's unfortunate but these things happen. Some time ago I sold my partners car, which apparently developed faults after the sale; likewise I've bought cars that seem fine at first, then have many niggles. It's part and parcel of buying a 40+ year old car. For some of us, it's part of the fun, and for others it makes them question their decision.

Stick with it though; our cars do need looking after, but they are so rewarding to drive / own etc that it all becomes worthwhile.

Where are you based - there's usually people around that can help, be they individuals who know the cars well, or specialist garages who will often offer advice for free.

If you're in the midlands you could drop me a message and I'd be happy to help if I can on the car.

Wishful, welcome to the world of classic cars. You'll regret it if you sell it.

Have someone work on the gearbox, spend some time getting to know the car and by then summer will be here. 

SP

For what it's worth, I agree with all the above advice.

A 40-year-old car is always going to have flaws and "reasonable wear and tear" is very different from that in a 5- or 10-year-old. It's always disappointing if you feel you have paid a lot of money and found such an obvious flaw, but in reality if that's all there is, you haven't come out at all badly.

Mechanical wear is always fixable and from the sound of it, the other issues are all pretty trivial. The soundness of body and chassis is the most important thing. If you are happy with those, then if I were you I would change the clutch, sort the horn switch and then enjoy a wonderful little car in time for the summer.

I somehow think that the postings are falling on deaf ears and the man has faded in to the sunset 

Shame as it would be interesting to know what 'Wishful' has opted to do?

Thanks for all of your replies and not calling me out for being the complete mug I've been here .

I should have just walked away, especially now that I've been driving the car around for a while, I've noticed that it has a naughty habit of coming out of first on hill starts... Almost certainly it wasn't actually my fault . There's a bit more too it as well with the sellers brother knowing the family so already already had a position of trust which he abused but I suppose some people will be like that when money's involved unfortunately. I'm always too quick to blame myself for these things.

In any case, I've had a tremendous fun driving the car around the New Forest over the last few weeks. There are a lot of Stags and TR6s about but I've only seen one Spitfire. The first few times I took it out after starting it again when the sun came out, it behaved very nicely (apart from the gearbox noise, which seems to be getting worse ).

After about 60 miles the dreaded idle instability has come back, sometimes running all the way up to 3000 RPM or so, but pulling the choke out and in again resolves the issue for a couple of minutes before it comes back. I think this is due to the front carburetor being upset by the exhaust leak between the manifold and exhaust pipe blowing onto it. There are several sheared screws on the carbs and also the join between the manifold and exhaust pipe so the carbs and exhaust will probably need replacing (looking at sellers feedback profile, he sold a spare pair separately before selling the car ).

So what am I going to do? Probably sell the car as a running project for half the price and cut my losses. I could fix it up myself, but it would cost thousands and having owned and driven the Spitfire, I've realised I'd get much more enjoyment out of a GT6 (in good condition of course). I don't really like the soft top and open air so much TBH, much rather the handling and driving experience. I had a really nice chat with someone on the forum over the phone who had a friend selling a GT6 with a TR6 engine in it. Wish I'd taken him up on that offer now .

Well at least this experience has cleared your mind on what you want as well as being a useful lesson. However its a reality that whenever buying a secondhand car its a gamble especially where a classic is concerned. You can reduce the risk with experience, doing your homework plus obviously spending more but theres always going to be unforeseen problems (sometimes not even known by the PO) and in fact sorting them can be rewarding in that it gives you a sense of ownership of the vehicle. 

Dont forget that you can get hardtops for Spitfires and also sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.... 

Quoted from glang-

Well at least this experience has cleared your mind on what you want as well as being a useful lesson. However its a reality that whenever buying a secondhand car its a gamble especially where a classic is concerned. You can reduce the risk with experience, doing your homework plus obviously spending more but theres always going to be unforeseen problems (sometimes not even known by the PO) and in fact sorting them can be rewarding in that it gives you a sense of ownership of the vehicle. 

Dont forget that you can get hardtops for Spitfires and also sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.... 

Absolutely agree with you 100% there! I'll probably sell the Spitfire for 2000-1800 in the next couple of months and be absolutely clear on it's problems when I list it.

I would be looking to sort it out with a sports exhaust, gearbox recon, new carbs but I'm really pining for a GT6 and would probably still be after fixing up the car and probably couldn't disassociate from all the unpleasantness when I bought it. I drive with the soft top up most of the time as the air hurts my ears in the evening . It was actually sold with the hard top, viewed at work where I couldn't see it, but it's so rotten it's past the point of no return. I'm enamored with the swept back look of the coupe!

In any case, it's not the end of the world, and an important lesson as you say. I'll need to ask for help and advice from the club when buying the GT6 at the end of the year (if I can find one with the 2500 engine in that time). At this time of year people seem to want silly prices. This would be my dream car...

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1097661

...but the price seems to be at least 10k higher than it should be!

The market seems to become saturated with people asking silly money and that becomes the new norm. There's a GT6 featured on Life on Mars that's been sitting at 15k for the past 8 months now...

Yes unfortunately for you GT6s have really taken off in value in the last couple of years. I know what you mean about their looks (which is one reason for their popularity) but they have the following disadvantages:

you get a lot less for your money than a Spit,

a lot fewer were made so theres far more choice of Spitfire especially the 1500,

they dont handle as well as a Spit and their drive train is more stressed (especially with a 2.5 engine)....

I thought the GT6 had a different drivetrain from the Spitfire? At least the gearbox is different.

As far as the handling goes, there seem to be pros and cons, the nose is heavier but the back end is better behaved. I've gone round a few corners a bit quickly and felt these rather unnerving effects.

Usually there seems to be a lull in interest in late Autumn which seems like the best time to get a decent deal as there aren't many people around willing to pay silly money.

The GT6 and Vitesse gearbox and diff are the same as the Spitfire except with different ratios. In fact the 1500 Spit had a stronger box than the others while the prop and halfshafts for all are essentially the same.

The weight distribution with the 4 cylinder engine in the Spit is always going to be better than the six plus the modified rear suspension of the later versions is more forgiving than most GT6s

Of course on all cars corrosion is the worst enemy so best to take a knowledgeable person along to inspect any prospective purchase.

Hope it works out