Club Triumph

Well this is the first post in what hopefully may become either another failed project or helpful how to, what am I going to try do? Put a Honda cylinder head on a small crank block, which cylinder head you may ask, a D series head one of the 4 valve per cylinder potentially vtec heads, why? Because the cylinders almost line up. 

What's happened so far, I bought a small crank engine (props to spitfire graveyard for a £100 engine) I've taken the head off cleaned it up and am debating getting it flowed and unleaded for the engine in my spit (if anyone knows someone good near Essex message me)

Wow!  Ambitious!   Four valves per cylinder, crossflow, pent-roof pistons, two Ohd. camshafts! 

But boring old caution makes me ask, how will you drive the camshafts?

John

Sorry, nothing happened for so long, I pressed "post" again.  And again.  How do you delete duplicates?

J

Well the pistons are actually relatively straight forward the ones I will use are on ebay labelled vitara turbo d16 pistons, but to fit them I need to get a 75mm bore which I think I'm going to have to sleep the block so I can move cylinders 2 and three closer a touch, the cross flow isn't a bad thing hopefully the exhaust is the right side and I just bring the intake onto the passenger side if not the passenger can have the "hot seat", cams are a belt driven thing on the d16 also a d16 spins the "wrong" way so I will have to see if they are able to run in reverse or if I'll have to pass the belt past them in the correct way for the cam, also not all the d16 variations were dohc some are single overhead cam 

On another note I have no idea how to delete duplicates but if you work out how let me know 

Quoted from JohnD-

Sorry, nothing happened for so long, I pressed "post" again.  And again.  How do you delete duplicates?

J

Not sure, but it seems the moderator option works!

Taylor,

Don't know Hondas, but cam belts usually run in the open air (well, behind a safety cover), while the Triumph chain is enclosed.    I'll be fascinated to know how you will block the open access at the from of the engine, without a timing cover,  lubricate the camshafts, and deal with all the other differences.    I'm not trying to diminish your enthusiasm, quite the reverse!   If you can do it, I'm all admiration, and posibly copying!

John

Why do you have to uncover the timing chain I was going to leave that because the original cam in there because it runs the oil pump and dizzy I was just going to take the pushrods out so that I can leave the cam in and maybe change the crank pulley so I can run a proper belt, seeing as I don't have a fan belt because it's an electric fan 

i am sure some did a kit for converting to a cam belt manyyearsago.

or perhaps it was just someone's project

I'm sorry, Taylor, I said I didn't know Hondas, and I saw the four valves per cylinder and assumed, two cam shafts!  All D-series had a single OHC!  Doh!

So, why not!  Go for it, but please tell us how!

John

Hi John I'm afraid it's not that simple not all d16 engines are single overhead cam some are dual cams, just have to choose wisely on which I want 

Quoted from thescrapman-

i am sure some did a kit for converting to a cam belt manyyearsago.

or perhaps it was just someone's project

I remember that! Well, the fact it happened. In the TSSC mag. 

The timing chain cover was replaced with a thick ali plate, with grooves machined for oilways.

It used std sprockets, must have been machined to suit the crank and cam. I don't remember a tensioner, but that can't be too hard?

Struggling to envisage how to reverse the direction though.

Run the cams the direction of the engine, and if they aren't symmetrical to be run the  wrong way get a reverse cam  ground 

Quoted from cliftyhanger-

Quoted from thescrapman-

i am sure some did a kit for converting to a cam belt manyyearsago.

or perhaps it was just someone's project

I remember that! Well, the fact it happened. In the TSSC mag. 

The timing chain cover was replaced with a thick ali plate, with grooves machined for oilways.

It used std sprockets, must have been machined to suit the crank and cam. I don't remember a tensioner, but that can't be too hard?

Struggling to envisage how to reverse the direction though.

Cliftyhanger,

Probably the simplest way to reverse the rotation is to interpose a single pair of gears in the cam drive.

                                                                                          Cheers,

                                                                                          Paul

I thought about gears as a solution, but it is suddenly getting complex. Not to mention expensive!!

The idea of a reversed cam grind makes a lot of sense.

I suppose the real question is do I try get a vtec head or just a non vtec head

Have a serious think about it.

The Vtec is a straight on/off? if so can be controlled by any ecu, or even shift light. If a VVT then you need a clever box of tricks.....

However, a thought should be given to when Vtec kicks in. And the rev limitations of the Triumph short engine. A fixed cam may well be a better bet. And simpler to get working.

Vtec on older engines is a oil pressure related thing, as revs increase oil pressure increases causing some stuff to move engaging vtec 

An I missing something here? Surely easier to fit a vtec engine complete than trying to adapt an old Triumph lump. I don't see what you would achieve without a lot of shagging around. 

Just my thoughts for what they are worth. Not wanting to decry what you're attempting.

Tony.

Taylor,

Perhaps not remarkably, great minds and all that, but you're not the first to think of a Honda D cylinder head.   See this thread over on the Triumph Experience, and the contribution by Carter Shore, who is a Triumphero whose opinion I very much respect: https://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?22,1499296

No outcome, but perhaps you should collaborate with the OP on that thread, John Kontos in Chicago.

John 

I did infact message him and very little came from it 

I did infact message him and very little came from it here is the contents of the reply I received from him

"As I explained, the bore spacing is probably the biggest challenge. 

Second is altering the Spitfire block to accommodate the D16 head studs/bolts.

The holes not only have to match the pattern, they also must be strong enough to carry the clamping loads without excessive distortion. 

Then there is the issue of cooling passages, which must match up between head and block. 

And finally the cam drive. 

Since the D16 rotates in the opposite direction to Spitfire, either a different custom ground cam is required, 

or a rotation reversing drive must be employed. 

This could be done by using a longer chain, with a pair of idler pulleys that route the chain around the bottom half of the sprocket 

rather than the top, which gives reverse rotation. 

Or a reversing gearset could be employed that operates from the front of the Spitfire cam or crankshaft sprocket. 

The Spitfire oil pump and dizzy is driven from the center of the camshaft, and so a 'dummy' cam is still required. 

Hope this helps."

However in the post where he mentioned many other things it did make me think about the d13c cylinder head which has a 73.7mm bore which is suspiciously close to the spitfire bore