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George92
August 22, 2017, 8:26pm Report to Moderator

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Hello all.  I'm in the proceeds of swapping my 1200 engine for a 1500 engine. Few bits here and there I need help on

Iv decided to swap the fan for electric fan for obvious reasons.  What do people suggest to be the best fit and best type. Someone said a vauxhall Corsa fan what's people's view.

And or so people who have done this engine swap is it best to change the radiator or will the 1200 be ok?

And any little tips or things to look out for or any kind of help for when I do the big swap would be super help full

Many thanks

George
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Nick Jones
August 22, 2017, 9:18pm Report to Moderator

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Hi George,

1200 radiator should be adequate if in decent condition.  The wider export ones certainly are fine as I used one years with a 1500.

There are a number of "Gotchas" to watch out for

If using the engine from a Dolomite the sump bowl is the wrong end.  You'll need either a Spit 1500 sump or a 1200/1300 one modified (with a hammer) to miss no. 1 big end.

Which gearbox are you using?  If you are bringing the single rail one across from the donor (Spitfire?) then the clutch will be fine as all bits match.  However, the propshaft will be the wrong length.  If you are planning to use the original gearbox (or any 3 rail box) then the 1500 clutch splines will be wrong and I don't think there is a standard offering with the right mix of spline size and diameter.  You can use the 1200 flywheel but will have to drill the bolt holes out to match the bigger 1500 bolts.  I don't recommend trying to use the earlier coil-sprung clutch.

Finally, are you planning to swap the diff?  Though the 1500 is more powerful (or at least has more torque) it's rather less free-revving and doesn't appreciate holding the 4000+ rpm needed for decent cruising speeds.  If you are fitting an overdrive 'box with it you can just about stick with the 4.11 diff (3.89 better) but if no overdrive then the 3.63 from a Spitfire will help your ears and engine life.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Casper
August 23, 2017, 7:24am Report to Moderator


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Quoted Text
are you planning to swap the diff?


and the early 1200 diff with the thinner inner halfshafts will not appreciate the extra torque and WILL break (not necessarily soon, but it will).

Change point was in 1968 at (1200) GA237600, (Export) GB57202 and (Spitfire) FC120000.  Numbers lower than these have the early thin inner shafts.

C,


Herald Anorak
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George92
August 23, 2017, 8:08am Report to Moderator

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Hello nick many thanks for the advice and help

Iv got a 1500 out of a midget witch is a spitfire engine pretty much going in to a 1966 1200.
I was hoping to use the gear box out of the 1200 and the clutch from the 1500 so everything would fit and or so to try and gain a little bit more acceleration power from the 1200 because of the gear ratios. And that was a question I forgot to ask  regarding the diff. I was going to run the 1200 diff trial and error kind of thing see how I got on. But if that's not advice then il go down a  different route

George
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cliftyhanger
August 23, 2017, 11:07am Report to Moderator

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You will need a "special" clutch plate as the herald box has coarse splines, the 1500box has fine. Think the plate is from a minor or midget... Google is your friend, and often eBay turns them up too.

Think you soon be wanting a diff swap! Or better overdrive.

Re the engine,. If taking g the sump off, worth checking the big end bearings for wear. And the thrusts. Probably the Mai s too while you are at it. They get a hard time in. 1500. But cheap enough to replace while it is out the car, and I am pretty sure you can do them without taking the crank out. Mains are a fiddle, but can be done.


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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George92
August 23, 2017, 1:02pm Report to Moderator

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Lovely thanks guys il have a look in to getting the bits

So would I need a spitfire prop shaft then?

And yeah it's getting a full engine rebuild no going to take any chances with that!
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oldmetalhead82
August 23, 2017, 2:11pm Report to Moderator


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The 1275cc Midget drive plate fits the Herald 1200 g/box splines.


Dave, North Sheffield. 1967 Herald 1200 Saloon, a rolling resto on a very tight budget.
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thescrapman
August 23, 2017, 2:42pm Report to Moderator

Colin Wake
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Quoted from George92
Lovely thanks guys il have a look in to getting the bits

So would I need a spitfire prop shaft then?

And yeah it's getting a full engine rebuild no going to take any chances with that!


If keeping same gearbox, same propshaft.

If you find an Overdrive box (you really need to, the 1500 will be revving its nuts off which it will hate), then you need a Vitesse prop if you find a 3-rail box, and a special if you fit a 1500 spitfire box.

In both cases you will need to change the flange on the rear end of the prop.

Another option would be a 3.63 1500 Spitfire diff to help with the gearing.

Cheers


Schadenfreude expert and collector of assorted rusty Triumphs on the Essex/Suffolk Border.

2010, 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 CT Navigators Championship winner.

10CR 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011 2013 - RBRR 1990, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 - Nachtrit 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012 - Chinese rally 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 - HCR 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 (3rd place), 2014. 2015, 2017

On the road.
1968 Spitfire Mk3 : 1973 TR6 : 1967 Herald 1200 Estate 1970 : 1968 Mk1 2.5PI 1968
Off the road
1967 Moss Monaco (Mk1 GT6 based) : 1970 Spitfire Mk4 : 1970 Mk2 2000 auto  : 1964 Mk1 2000  : Mk2 2.5PI
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RobPearce
August 23, 2017, 4:18pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from thescrapman
If you find an Overdrive box (you really need to, the 1500 will be revving its nuts off which it will hate), then you need a Vitesse prop if you find a 3-rail box, and a special if you fit a 1500 spitfire box.

In both cases you will need to change the flange on the rear end of the prop.

Another option would be a 3.63 1500 Spitfire diff to help with the gearing.


Swapping just the diff also requires the propshaft rear flange to be changed, but the other way from putting a Vitesse prop in with the Herald diff. If you opt for Spitfire Mk4 3-rail O/D and a 3.63:1 diff then the non-OD Vitesse prop is correct already.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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George92
August 23, 2017, 4:40pm Report to Moderator

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Haha thanks guys this is getting confusing now haha. So I can source a spitfire box so what's best with that a vitesse prop shaft and spitfire dif

Thanks for the help guys. Just want to make sure I get it right the first time when it's all out of the car
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George92
August 23, 2017, 8:40pm Report to Moderator

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So can I get away with

A spitfire box on to a vitesse prop shaft and a spitfire diff??

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Davemate
August 24, 2017, 2:39am Report to Moderator


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I started with a 1200 herald
1500 engine,overdrive gearbox and with the spitfire 1500 diff :-
You'll have to change the flanges on the drive shafts as the 1200 herald's are small and on the diff they are large,same goes for the prop shaft.
As for the prop shaft I just had the original 1200 one shortened to fit and fitted larger flanges,that way the engine bolts straight in and the overdrive gearbox mount can be fixed using the old gearbox mount holes on the chassis (two bolts and drill two more for the other two bolts) you'll also have to either hammer back or cut an inch or so off the back end of the "tunnel" so you can get to the front prop shaft bolts from inside the car.



Herald 1500,rallyfied- overdrive,swing spring with 1500 spit diff,440lb front springs, adjustable height spax on front and back, trunionless conversion,thicker arb,rear roll cage,harnesses,bucket seats,extra gauges,Vitesse steering wheel,genuine 5.5j smoothies wheels,4 branch manifold
Still for sale

Mk1 2000 saloon,now a 2.5   

Timing marshal CT autosolo Bovington 2011,2012,half of 2013,2014 and 2016
Marshalled Essex winter rally 2013
RBRR 2012, co driver
24th Nachtrit 2012, navigator
Chinese rally 2013, navigator
Essex winter rally 2014, navigator
HCR 2014, co driver
RBRR 2014, co driver
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cliftyhanger
August 24, 2017, 5:12am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from George92
So can I get away with

A spitfire box on to a vitesse prop shaft and a spitfire diff??



Lots of variables I am afraid.
What you have said will work if you use a spitfire overdrive box as long as it is a 3 rail overdrive one (NOT a 1500 overdrive) or indeed a spit 1500 non od box.

The spit 1500 overdrive box is 1" longer. You can bodge it in there with a vitesse prop by spacing the engine forward a bit (I did with some spacers made of 1" box section steel. Needs must 20 years ago) but a shortened prop is better.

Spitfire 1-3, herald and vitesse 1600 used all small flanges on gearbox/prop, and again driveshaft (confusingly vitesse 1600 used large flanges here!)

All later spit, vitesse 2L and mk2, and all GT6 used all large flanges everywhere.

Onto another "engineering"solution. I have seen several spitfire diffs with the larger flanges that have been redrilled (between the std holes) to accept the smaller flanged prop. The prop/diff have a centering ring arrangement, so it should be easy to do at home.... But it won't work with the output shafts.





Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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George92
August 24, 2017, 6:40am Report to Moderator

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So overall in a perfect world what's the best and easiest set up to have?
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cliftyhanger
August 24, 2017, 7:30am Report to Moderator

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Hows the budget  

To me the "best" (and others will have different views) would be a 3.89 diff and and overdrive gearbox. I have no preference over earlier 3 rail or the late single rail box. Just as long as it has synchro on first gear.

If money is tight, and you don't want to spend out a lot now (but maybe in the future look to add overdrive) I would probably use the existing gearbox and swap the diff to a 3,63 That uses teh original prop, but either swap the rear flange or drill the diff flange. Stoll would need the flanges swapping on your driveshafts, a good opportunity to change the UJ's too.
There is another option re driveshafts. If you can find a pair of diff quarter shafts from a late herald or a spit mk3 (fairly common diffs) then they will swap with the ones on later diffs.....very easy.


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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