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Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Gearbox reconditioning
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Gearbox reconditioning Print
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RobPearce
July 24, 2017, 9:12am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Paudman
HELP!
Your first sentence says it all.... "need to drop the layshaft into bottom"....
HOW??????


Should be easy. The layshaft runs on an inner shaft that is retained by the bell housing and the rear extension. With those two removed, it should be possible to tap it through and out, leaving the outer layshaft free to drop.

That said, I've never actually done this myself, so hopefully someone who has will come along and confirm/correct/clarify.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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glang
July 24, 2017, 9:15am Report to Moderator

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Exactly right and its easy peasy (although not quite so to put back together) but again I say download the manual and see the pictures.....
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Paudman
July 24, 2017, 6:37pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
I say download the manual and see the pictures.....


And again I say: I have.
However, I'm a great believer in WHY as until I understand why something needs to be done, it won't click with me. I also need to know what the parts are called, so I can understand what the diagram refers to.
SO: if the manual says:
"Withdraw the countershaft and retain the needle roller bearings by inserting a length of tubing 0·655" (16'64 mm.) % x 6·S'· (165 mID.) long..." then this means NOTHING to me. Nor do pictures showing the side of the gearbox.

If it had said: in the front casing you'll see a round tube under the input shaft... this needs to be moved backwards out of the housing but if you do so all the gears will drop off it. Therefore you need to feed a shorter tube back into the hole to hold everything in place, but short enough so it can be lifted up and out of the box housing." Now I'm probably completely wrong, but the manual doesn't say HOW or in which direction to remove the countershaft nor does it give any tips or tricks that practiced members are likely to know to look out for. Hence I feel I'm no further on than before and will hopefully get someone else to do it while I watch and learn. Rob's version was quite informative... more please!


If it was made by man, it can be dismantled and rebuilt by man. Usually just not as easily.
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Nick Jones
July 24, 2017, 7:04pm Report to Moderator

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The layshaft has an anti-rotation pin at the back and therefore can only pushed out front to back.
3 synchro gearboxes have plain bushes in the laygear cluster so the shorter dummy shaft isn't needed.

4 synchro boxes do have needle rollers so, unless you are planning to remove all the rollers anyway you need a dummy shaft which is about the same diameter as the real thing but just a couple of mm shorter than the laygear cluster itself.  Can be a wooden dowel piece of metal tube or a real shaft cut down (will need a grinder for that - it's HARD).  From the belhousing end just push the shaft through with the dummy shaft.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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glang
July 24, 2017, 7:59pm Report to Moderator

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hmmm I must admit a gearbox rebuild is probably not the best job to chose as your first one. Most people start doing routine maintenance and work their way up to something like this so maybe you need to at least find a knowledgeable assistant.....
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thescrapman
July 24, 2017, 8:51pm Report to Moderator

Colin Wake
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2 bits of wire hooked under the cluster allow you to lift it back into place afterwards.


Schadenfreude expert and collector of assorted rusty Triumphs on the Essex/Suffolk Border.

2010, 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 CT Navigators Championship winner.

10CR 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011 2013 - RBRR 1990, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 - Nachtrit 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012 - Chinese rally 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 - HCR 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 (3rd place), 2014. 2015, 2017

On the road.
1968 Spitfire Mk3 : 1973 TR6 : 1967 Herald 1200 Estate 1970 : 1968 Mk1 2.5PI 1968
Off the road
1967 Moss Monaco (Mk1 GT6 based) : 1970 Spitfire Mk4 : 1970 Mk2 2000 auto  : 1964 Mk1 2000  : Mk2 2.5PI
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Nick Jones
July 24, 2017, 9:49pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
hmmm I must admit a gearbox rebuild is probably not the best job to chose as your first one. Most people start doing routine maintenance and work their way up to something like this so maybe you need to at least find a knowledgeable assistant.....


This is true.... though as a first gearbox to do it's not a bad starting point as they are fairly straight-forward and don't need any very special tools.  VW 085 series 'boxes on the other hand...  

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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sparky_spit
July 25, 2017, 12:34pm Report to Moderator

Mike Banks
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Quoted from thescrapman
2 bits of wire hooked under the cluster allow you to lift it back into place afterwards.


Pardon?  Are you sure you are on the right forum Colin?


Location - North Essex

1968 MkIII Spitfire - 2009, 2013, 2015 10CR. 2009, 2010 Nachtrit. 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 HCR (..and 11/14ths of the 2011 10CR)
Yamaha RS200 two stroke smoke machine.
Royal Enfield Bullet 500
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Fordski
July 25, 2017, 6:51pm Report to Moderator
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Sorry bit late to party on this one but if you're still looking for a rebuild I would happily recommend Dave Saunders at Triumph Spares near Worcester.
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Paudman
July 26, 2017, 8:01am Report to Moderator

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It was only meant to be a bearing and gasket replacement to spruce up a perfectly good gearbox... not my first job by any means. I've rebuilt just about everything else on Triumphs. I just thought I'd try it myself as opposed to my last three or four Triumph restorations which were sent to specialists or replaced from a spares pile... just trying to improve my skill set. Thank Gawd engines aren't this complicated...


If it was made by man, it can be dismantled and rebuilt by man. Usually just not as easily.
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roger.england
July 26, 2017, 11:37am Report to Moderator


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You could try :

http://www.firstmotion.co.uk/home

I've used him for an overhaul of a 1200 Herald gearbox, rebuild of a Midget gearbox, and the supply of a Ford type 9. Paul is the owner - in Baldock, Herts.

Roger


1971 Gilbern Invader
1956 Terrot 125 EMS
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Moss Car Man
July 29, 2017, 9:46am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Paudman


And again I say: I have.
However, I'm a great believer in WHY as until I understand why something needs to be done, it won't click with me. I also need to know what the parts are called, so I can understand what the diagram refers to.
SO: if the manual says:
"Withdraw the countershaft and retain the needle roller bearings by inserting a length of tubing 0·655" (16'64 mm.) % x 6·S'· (165 mID.) long..." then this means NOTHING to me. Nor do pictures showing the side of the gearbox.

If it had said: in the front casing you'll see a round tube under the input shaft... this needs to be moved backwards out of the housing but if you do so all the gears will drop off it. Therefore you need to feed a shorter tube back into the hole to hold everything in place, but short enough so it can be lifted up and out of the box housing." Now I'm probably completely wrong, but the manual doesn't say HOW or in which direction to remove the countershaft nor does it give any tips or tricks that practiced members are likely to know to look out for. Hence I feel I'm no further on than before and will hopefully get someone else to do it while I watch and learn. Rob's version was quite informative... more please!


I'm with you Paudman...it usually takes me a lot of staring at the item in question & re-reading the manual to get the "what" & the "why" straight in my head!  


Meanwhile....following the advice earlier in this thread, I have a remote linkage service kit ready to fit, have cut a section out of the fibreglass tunnel allowing me access (my car is a Moss Malvern remember) & have made an aluminium panel to fit afterwards....
I'm hoping to get the linkage done tomorrow & hopefully that will solve my rattling & sloppy gear change issue & i won't need another gearbox!

Fingers crossed!


www.thesundogs.uk

Rockin' rollin' rhythm & roots!
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Pete Lewis
July 29, 2017, 10:41am Report to Moderator

Tssc Herts and Beds A.O.
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its easiest if you can remove the 4 nuts and take the whole remote assy off on the bench

there are two bushes there is the top hat and spacer bush fits the base of the lever , the thro bolt has to be fitted the right way round or it fouls the casting in 3/4th.

halfway down the remote rod is another fork and pivot bush, this takes the rubber bush  and two flat washers
  ( might be red ones)
the bolt wont come out with remote in situ as you wont get a spanner on it.

in the kit are two  0  rings  these fit inside the alloy casting and seal the short front shaft oil leaks  these are best left alone  to fit you have to remove the square head dowel bolt and pull the shaft out the selector lever  these dowel bolts are often more than 'tight'  

on the gear lever spherical cup washers make sure you either use the old one or check there are no sharp cropped edges that mince the new ball very quickly

if the  gear  lever reverse spring and cups and spherical are in good condition leave them alone

all this will make a  good improvement






1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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2Triumphs
July 30, 2017, 12:28am Report to Moderator

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I had a mk4 box built by Mike 2 year ago and done 6k miles on it very pleased , I've heard bad things about a fitchettts rebuild using fibre washers instead of shims etc and I suspect this could be an issue with other suppliers

The main problem is the main shafts are  prone to heavy wear yet that the one bit people don't replace cos I don't think they're available as are a fair few other bits - I think mike has stock he had made or horded

You get what you pay for - if your driving a lot and it's a long term keep I'd avoid trying to do cheapo solution unless your happy to learn the hard way and like taking gearboxes out

The trouble with all these blooming parts suppliers is if you get a problem with an overhauled part they just shrug you off cos they're just middle men and let's face it very few items they sell do many miles......so they just say  " oh we've never had any reports of failures - we'll contact our supplier " and they never do

. - I would only buy overhaul box direct from a reputable gearbox supplier or do it yourself

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Moss Car Man
August 3, 2017, 5:36pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Pete Lewis
its easiest if you can remove the 4 nuts and take the whole remote assy off on the bench

there are two bushes there is the top hat and spacer bush fits the base of the lever , the thro bolt has to be fitted the right way round or it fouls the casting in 3/4th.

halfway down the remote rod is another fork and pivot bush, this takes the rubber bush  and two flat washers
  ( might be red ones)
the bolt wont come out with remote in situ as you wont get a spanner on it.

in the kit are two  0  rings  these fit inside the alloy casting and seal the short front shaft oil leaks  these are best left alone  to fit you have to remove the square head dowel bolt and pull the shaft out the selector lever  these dowel bolts are often more than 'tight'  

on the gear lever spherical cup washers make sure you either use the old one or check there are no sharp cropped edges that mince the new ball very quickly

if the  gear  lever reverse spring and cups and spherical are in good condition leave them alone

all this will make a  good improvement


Thanks to all for the advice...Pete, the above instructions were really helpful...although I had the added hassle of cutting into the tunnel on the Moss to access the remote, & then whip up a cover afterwards...I have now replaced all the remote bushes & washers, etc. & the gear change is much tighter & I seem to have finally got rid of the irritating rattles!   Looks like I did not need a new gearbox after all..


www.thesundogs.uk

Rockin' rollin' rhythm & roots!
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