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Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Bond (Vitesse Mk2) Breather Arrangement
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Nick Jones
May 29, 2017, 6:36pm Report to Moderator

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You can't connect it like that without the PCV valve!  It's bypassing the throttle valves by drawing (oily) air from the engine which, (as well as a hopefully small amount of blow-by) in turn is being drawn through the vent on the oil filler cap and possibly through oil seals as well.  The PCV valve regulates this flow and attempts to control the pressure in the crankcase to a moderate vacuum.

If you need it to run before you have the PCV valve in working order you'll do far better to use the "late" breather design using the SU take-offs as they don't generate enough suck to cause problems.

I say again, you need to check what needles are in the carbs as this matters - alot!  While a proper Vitesse Mk2 2L probably can just about make use of the extra breathing from the HS6 and long manifold it needs the right needles to do it, or even just to run right.  From the sounds of how they came about the needles could be anything!  Even if they are the "correct" ones for a late 2000 (TC?) with HS6s they won't be correct for the Vitesse engine which has a hotter cam.

You need to pop a dash-pot off, remove a needle and see what is stamped on the shank.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Johnnyj1000
May 29, 2017, 7:04pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Nick, much appreciated. I am a bit confused as at the start of this thread I had the SU breathers connected via a T-piece and the PCV valve (albeit the wrong way round) to the rocker cover, thus the "later" set-up, which I was recommended to ditch.

As mentioned above, the carbs are running stock TR7 BDM needles so I will get hold of the ones you suggest for the Dolly sprint. Once the PCV valve is re-instated, I think I'll have the correct arrangement. Do you concur?

Thanks again and all the best

John


'67 Bond Equipe 2L Mk2 Convertible; '77 TR7 FHC.
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Nick Jones
May 29, 2017, 7:49pm Report to Moderator

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Yes, what you have now would be correct if the PCV valve was actually there, but without the valve it's really not good and will cause all sorts of issues, some of which you were reporting above.  That's why I suggested reverting (temporarily) to the later system if you need to use the car before you have a working PCV valve available.

I hadn't spotted that you have the TR7 BDM needles installed.  These are actually really similar to the BBT Sprint needles and are richer at the top end than BCM Sprint needles, so I now doubt you'll gain much by buying Sprint needles (pic compares profiles - thanks again to James for the Minty Lamb SU needle compar-o-rama!).  The springs fitted in the dashpots also have an influence - these are colour coded red, green or yellow IIRC though quite often all hint of colour is gone......

A rolling road session might well turn out to be money well spent, though you'll need to track down someone old school enough to know about SUs.

Pete Baldwin at the Wilshire Garage north of Royston seems well regarded by the Mini (real Mini) and TR boys and is maybe within reach?

You may also get someone chime in who is actually running this combination in a Vitesse or GT6 and can advise on the needles they are using as it's not one I've tried myself.  I ran HIF4s (same as HS4 1.5" needle-wise) on my Mk2 Vitesse engine (std) for a few years and did find that the needles spec'd for the 2000 were too lean for the Vitesse above about 2,800 rpm, though I don't remember what I ended up with.  I skipped the HS6/HIF44 stage and went straight to EFI, so now tune with a laptop.

Nick



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Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Johnnyj1000
May 30, 2017, 8:00pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Nick, much appreciated. I realise now that I have gone from one hybrid system to another! Next step then is to find a used PCV valve from somewhere, or even better just the clip as I have the rest of it!

The car is weird in that I love it and hate it at the same time. It has never run correctly and therefore has been a bit unloved for long periods. Every now and then I'll have a go at fixing it, but nothing ever works so it goes back into the garage for a few years, which is a shame. I'll get the PCV valve sorted but (and call me a pessimist!) I bet it still won't run right and that's not for a moment questioning all of your fab advice. I just have a hunch there is an underlying issue.

I do wonder if the engine is just past its best, and I did compression test it a while ago, albeit with a cheap tester. The results may not be dead accurate in pressure terms but the variations might tell a story:

1. 165
2. 170
3. 150
4. 140
5. 150
6. 170

It would be great to get your views on those variations.

Other than an engine rebuild, the only other thing not changed is the fuel pump and I am still running the original mechanical one. I wonder sometimes if this has become intermittent or something, as when the car is running it will suddenly change its idle for a few seconds, then revert back to healthy tickover.

Anyway, next stop is the PCV valve and we'll go from there. Thanks for all the help and in particular going to the trouble of researching the needles - much appreciated.

Cheers

John


'67 Bond Equipe 2L Mk2 Convertible; '77 TR7 FHC.
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daver clasper
May 30, 2017, 8:47pm Report to Moderator
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Would it be possible to make a clip for valve from coat hanger wire etc?.

Dave
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Nick Jones
May 30, 2017, 8:49pm Report to Moderator

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Compressions don't look too awful.  The variation between best (170) and worst (140) is a a bit more than ideal but I don't think it would show up in general running.    May be nothing worse than sticky rings / poorly seating valves and might even improve if the car was used regularly and got some long runs.  They really don't do well being sat around and used only intermittently.

If there are a number of minor faults or even just tuning issues they can stack up and manifest in odd ways and modern fuel is sufficiently different to confuse matters further, especially in warm weather or even when just stuck in traffic when it tends to boil and vaporise and cause erratic running.  A worn distributor can also produce erratic results.

From my own experiences, it is usually things like carbs or distributor that give erratic running rather than internal problems which just cost power.  I ran my Vitesse 2L (mk 2 engine like yours) for many years on the original Stromberg Lucas points distributor.  It was mostly faithful and went pretty well.  Traffic jams in hot weather made it grumpy.  Lead replacement petrol (remember that) made it very grumpy.  It pinked for England.  It hated starting hot.  I fitted SU HIF 4s (ex-Allegro!).  Had some aggro sorting the right needles.  It was much better about starting hot and drank less, but perhaps a bit less lively.  A few years later I converted it to programmable fuel injection with some exhaust tube, some injection hardware from scrapped cars and a home assembled Megasquirt ECU.  At this point, still running the original points distributor, it picked up few horsepower, was much more consistent about starting, more of less gave up pinking and became a fair bit more economical.  Encouraged, I lobbed the distributor into a box and handed control of the ignition over to the ECU as well.  This made everything more consistent, and allowed the ignition curves to be matched to what the engine could usefully use, improving mid-range torque, driveability and fuel economy further.

At this point I had an engine that always started on the button, hot or cold.  Would idle properly when stone cold or stuck in summer traffic jams, made about 15 bhp more than standard with more part throttle torque, able to return 35 - 40 mpg on a run and always over 30 mpg average.  And yet the internals remained completely standard and as built (literally) by Triumph apart from 40+ years / 120 - 140k miles of wear and abuse.  To be fair, quite a bit of the gains I noticed were probably from the carbs and especially the distributor being well past their best, but I suppose my point is that the basic 2L "HC" Vitesse is a very decent engine capable of excellent results well into it's wear cycle provided the fuel and sparks are right.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Johnnyj1000
May 31, 2017, 6:40pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Nick, as ever. Much appreciated. I am glad that the compressions don't look too bad and you're right, the car just doesn't get used enough. Even when I did have it on the road, the engine just felt "tight" somehow. Is there an additive for sticky rings worth trying?

In terms of tuning and minor faults etc, well, I kind of feel like I have tried to eradicate most of them over the years. It has had a new distributor (electronic ignition), new leads, plugs and coil. I have done the valve timing to the manual's spec and likewise the ignition timing, with a strobe (I even bought a new Accuspark gun to do it!). Fuel is actually my next suspect, as the fuel pump is the old mechanical one and the lines into the engine bay do look a little, er, haphazard in their routing. But I wouldn't know if they are correct without another car to compare it with.

Well, my car is grumpy in pretty much any weather, it isn't fussy! As I say, the carbs were brand new refurb and have probably done less that 2-300 miles and the dizzy is an Accuspark for the 2L Vitesse. The BDM needles are standard TR7 but it is very good to know that those compare well with the others you recommended.

The work you have done on your car re fuel and sparks sounds fab! I'd love to see it one day. In the meantime, I'll track down a PCV valve as that is a starting point. I guess it is all to do with knowing that each suspect area is correct before moving on to the next - a process of elimination. On the subject of the PCV valve, the Smiths original ones are very expensive on ebay yet there are loads of others for different cars. Do they all do the same basic thing and could I use a non Smiths one? If so, I can get one for a VW Golf which essentially has an in and out port, and looks like a plastic version of ours. Stupid question? !!

All the best

John


'67 Bond Equipe 2L Mk2 Convertible; '77 TR7 FHC.
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Nick Jones
May 31, 2017, 7:42pm Report to Moderator

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The Smiths ones are expensive.  I don't know whether the VW "equivalent" would work.  I did try one that looked the part but it turned out not to be a valve, just a "drop out" pot so be careful what you get.  Quite a lot of modern PCV valves look nothing like the Smiths valve and are just a small in-line canister, barely bigger in diameter than the hose they sit in.

Anyway, if you have the body of the Smiths valve, which you obviously do, you have the important, expensive bit.  I've just ordered a refurb kit (from Rimmers unusually enough) which claims to include the diaphragm, plunger and top cover.
https://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID008001
I'm sure the wire clip can be fashioned without too much trouble.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Nick Jones
June 1, 2017, 12:36pm Report to Moderator

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Having just received the Rimmers diaphragm "kit" I now know that whatever the description may imply, you only get the diaphragm itself, so what I wrote above is apparently partly tosh....

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Nick Jones
June 2, 2017, 9:40am Report to Moderator

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Posts: 9,930
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As a follow up to this, largely co-incidently (though this thread did probably provide the kick to get the new diaphragm ordered!), I've just fitted a Smiths breather to my Vitesse.  It would have had one as standard but it never has during the 28 years in my ownership even when still running on carbs.  Now distinctly non-standard in the manifold department, it was running a simple tube from the rocker cover vent to throttle body, which was causing a build up of oil in the TB area and clogging the (non-standard) auxiliary air valve.  It now has the Smiths connected exactly as would have been in the factory install, which seems to work.  The auxiliary air valve has had a wash out and now with it's own, entirely separate pipework, will hopefully work properly again!

Nick



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Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Johnnyj1000
June 4, 2017, 6:21pm Report to Moderator

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Hi Nick

Thanks for the info and I am glad my original post provided the impetus for you refurbing your PCV! Rimmer prices can be extortionate, but you certainly don't expect to have bits missing. That's a shame.

So, today I fashioned a clip from a coat hanger as suggest by Dave (above) and it worked a treat. Next stop was to fit the valve, which wasn't too tricky - it was just a case of making sure the pipes didn't crimp and thus restrict flow. I'll get a photo posted soon but the arrangement I have ended up with is a bit "free standing" in that the pipes actually hold the thing up rather than it being bolted to anything, but it appears to work.

Onto the tuning. Once warm the car did run a whole heap better and I spent quite a long time adjusting the SUs by lifting the, er, lift pins and listening for the corresponding increase or decrease in revs, and enriching/leaning accordingly. By the time I had finished the car was running really well, so much so that I have even re-ignited an interest in getting it MOTd and back on the road. However the big test will be the drive to the MOT centre - I have been here before, where I think I have cracked it yet it splutters at 50/60mph and cuts out when pulling away. We'll see and I'll report back!

Thanks everyone

John


'67 Bond Equipe 2L Mk2 Convertible; '77 TR7 FHC.
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