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Bent Rocker Cover Print
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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 6:14pm Report to Moderator

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Hi All,

First post here. My brother has just inherited a '61 Herald 1200 which our Grandparents owned from new. We collected it last weekend and I'm working on it with him. Neither of us are experienced mechanics or know Heralds so this is our opportunity to learn. The tappets came loose on our drive home last weekend and in adjusting those we've discovered that someone has previously tried to lever the rocker cover off, bent the edge and scored the covers gasket surface in the process. This explains the fresh oil on one side of the engine at the end of our journey. Please see the photos - does anyone know if this is repairable? We understand that forming a seal with the cork gasket can be tricky anyway so would we just be better off buying a replacement cover. We think the bent cover is a replacement alloy one  - seems too light to be steel and it obviously bent easily! Thanks in advance - Dave.




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thescrapman
March 18, 2017, 7:10pm Report to Moderator

Colin Wake
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You could probably reshape it to suit.

I would swap it, but then have spare ones


Schadenfreude expert and collector of assorted rusty Triumphs on the Essex/Suffolk Border.

2010, 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 CT Navigators Championship winner.

10CR 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011 2013 - RBRR 1990, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 - Nachtrit 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012 - Chinese rally 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 - HCR 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 (3rd place), 2014. 2015, 2017

On the road.
1968 Spitfire Mk3 : 1973 TR6 : 1967 Herald 1200 Estate 1970 : 1968 Mk1 2.5PI 1968
Off the road
1967 Moss Monaco (Mk1 GT6 based) : 1970 Spitfire Mk4 : 1970 Mk2 2000 auto  : 1964 Mk1 2000  : Mk2 2.5PI
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Hogie
March 18, 2017, 7:49pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Dave,
          as mentioned that should be fairly easily knocked out.
When you put it back use one of the Silicon RTV gasket goo's with the cork gasket.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:14pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the advice. I've come to the same conclusion since posting too - I'm to try reshaping since there is nothing to loose really. If it still leaks, we'll have to get a new one.

Also thought I should share a few pics by way of introduction ....so here they are below.



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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:14pm Report to Moderator

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2.



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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:15pm Report to Moderator

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3.



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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:16pm Report to Moderator

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4.



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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:16pm Report to Moderator

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5.



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Dave Williams
March 18, 2017, 9:17pm Report to Moderator

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6.



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cliftyhanger
March 19, 2017, 6:42am Report to Moderator

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That is one very nice little car......


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Bitumen Boy
March 19, 2017, 11:25am Report to Moderator
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Yes, it does look smart. That looks like an original rocker cover btw, they were never very wonderful but you can probably make it seal as well as most with a little work.
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Casper
March 19, 2017, 2:30pm Report to Moderator


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Bill and Mark will be along soon, but do I spot an original black pear shaped gear knob ?  If so, fit a burgler alarm - they are very scarce. [Tongue in cheek remark - not serious]
If you are newbies you might not know that your car MAY be on an earlier version of the chassis (referred to as Mk 1) than most 1200s out there.  
Looking forward to hearing more.

C.


Herald Anorak
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Mark Hammond
March 19, 2017, 3:31pm Report to Moderator

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That indeed seems to be a very early 1200 (July 1961 registered) so must be among the oldest survivors.  I spy pear shaped black gear knob, white door handle and winder escutcheons and a white tipped speedometer needle, countersunk switches on the facia and a key operated exterior passenger door lock which signify very early 1200.  If this were mine, I'd sympathetically renovate and keep as original and as standard as I could.  It is a very collectable little car.

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Casper
March 19, 2017, 4:04pm Report to Moderator


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? Front valance a replacement ?

C.


Herald Anorak
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Mark Hammond
March 19, 2017, 4:28pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Casper
? Front valance a replacement ?

C.


What makes you think that it is a replacement?  Looks like it might need one though, also the edges of the bonnet where it meeds the "D" plates looks a bit suspect.  

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Casper
March 19, 2017, 5:02pm Report to Moderator


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I didn't think the early ones had the aperture .. . . probably wrong.  I thought Bill had listed all the various types in another thread, but I can't find it.

C.


Herald Anorak
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Mark Hammond
March 19, 2017, 6:46pm Report to Moderator

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Might be wrong but I thought by '61 they all had the aperture.....

M.


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Jvvilliams
March 19, 2017, 7:02pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks a lot your advice so far! I'm the lucky owner now of the lovely Herald in question but am currently away so Dave offered to start the thread. As far as I'm aware, it's virtually all stock aside from a couple of door locks that had to be replaced, but I have a vague recollection of the car being 'restored' in approx the mid 90's but I'd have been less than 10 years old at that point! I've read through the service history and don't recall any record of either the valance or bonnet being replaced, but I dont actually recall any record of any restoration, so I'm not 100% my memory serves me correctly there. Once I get the service history from my uncle I'll check back through it all. Once we've had a chance to sort the rocker cover we'll update. I adjusted all the tappets (hopefully correctly) with a feeler gauge before I came away, so first job done. Just feels amazing to own the herald I dreamt of as a child.
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Mark Hammond
March 19, 2017, 7:28pm Report to Moderator

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Likewise, my grandfather owned my Herald from new, I remember going with him to the showroom to take delivery back in 1965.  These are charming cars, but being one of the earliest 1200s yours is particularly special especially as it retains many early features.  Meanwhile, here's mine.....

Mark



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Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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herald948
March 20, 2017, 12:35am Report to Moderator


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Quoted from Mark Hammond
Might be wrong but I thought by '61 they all had the aperture.....

M.

No, that definitely is a replacement (later style) valence. The change came roughly with the "MkII" chassis at GA80001 and future. My own GA41429LDL has the correct earlier style valence (although it is long overdue for some attention to preserve it, such as removing about 34 metric tons of filler and reshaping it more properly )!


--Andy Mace

*Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet?
*Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er, Triumph Herald engine with wings.
-- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22)
http://triumph-herald.us
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Jvvilliams
March 20, 2017, 8:00am Report to Moderator
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Mark, that's a very nice herald! Looks beautifully maintained. I wonder if it would be possible to track down an original valance to fit... probably unlikely if the early 1200's are uncommon.
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Casper
March 20, 2017, 9:49am Report to Moderator


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Quoted Text
I wonder if it would be possible to track down an original valance to fit...


Don't fret about it.  It's only nerds like us that would even notice, let alone care.  I only spotted it because (sensibly) the number plate is positioned to expose the aperture.  if it was mounted higher no-one would be likely to notice.

We would love to know the Commission Number (don't post the last two digits if you are concerned).

C.


Herald Anorak
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Jvvilliams
March 20, 2017, 4:02pm Report to Moderator
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Forgive me for being naive, but where do we find the commission number Casper?
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Casper
March 20, 2017, 4:25pm Report to Moderator


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http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/images/TriumphHerald_NoLocation.jpg

It's on the V5 as well, because the plate might have been removed

It should be something like GAnnnnnnDL

C.


Herald Anorak
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Jonny-Jimbo
March 20, 2017, 4:28pm Report to Moderator

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That should be on a small aluminium plate on the side of the bulkhead. There will be a small tag that is painted body colour - that is the body number, and not really that relevant. The Commission number is that the DVLA records as the 'chassis number' for the car... and just to confuse matters further, there is a small metal tag welded to the front crossmember of the chassis under the engine which is the chassis number, but like the body number not what the DVLA record.

Also, I don't think anyone else answered the original post directly - the rocker cover is the original steel type. It's very thin. The aluminium one is a cast and machined unit, much thicker material.

Going by the colour, it MAY be a 'gold seal' factory replacement engine, but I can't remember how 'gold' the 'gold' paint was??


62 Vitesse 1600 - Slammed & modified
67 2000 - Fitted with 2.5 o/d - 2012 RBRR, 2015 Essex Rally, 2016 HCR, 2016 RBRR
67 2000 Estate - Dormant
70 Herald 13/60 - First car, many bits
77 CZ 125 Sport - 70 miles on the clock
77 Kawasaki KM90 - Shop hack
81 Yamaha DT125 - Many bits
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88 BMW E30 320i - For Sale
89 Citroen AX GT - Rally car!
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Dave Williams
March 20, 2017, 4:29pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks for your interest and help all! The rocker cover hammered out easily and I'm just waiting for the new gasket to arrive. I know where to find the commission number, Joe. When the new gasket arrives I'll pop up and fit it, look up the number and report back. Prob next weekend.

Casper, you mention the last two digits - what do these indicate that we might be concerned? I thought it was just a sequential production line number?

Mark, your car looks great. We haven't cleaned Joe's of the 10+ yrs of grime its accumulated sitting in the garage yet but hopefully it will look as good when we polish up the paint and derust the chrome.
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Dave Williams
March 20, 2017, 4:32pm Report to Moderator

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Interesting info re the gold rocker cover and potential replacement engine Jonny-Jimbo. How do we check this further?
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Nick Jones
March 20, 2017, 4:59pm Report to Moderator

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AFAIK all 1200 engines had the  bronze/gold rocker cover.  I know my (very original when I got it) 1200 did as have most of the others I've seen.  I think I might even have it somewhere. Gold seal engines were gold all over and a lighter shade of gold.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Casper
March 20, 2017, 5:28pm Report to Moderator


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Gold Seal engines were factory reconditioned engines from British Leyland/BMC.  
S-T named (and painted) some engines as 'Gold Star'.

herald948 (who replied above) has a great list of commission numbers and engine number so we should be able to identify if the engine (is likely to be that which) was originally fitted.

The GA indicates a 1200, the DL indicates a saloon car.

Some people are cautious about putting their full car identifying details onto the internet, being worried about [I'm not sure what].  But, we should be able to tell a fair bit about the car with a number within 100 of what it actually is.

C.


Herald Anorak
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Casper
March 20, 2017, 5:41pm Report to Moderator


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I'd not heard about 'Silver Seal engines before now:

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/be100a.htm

C.


Herald Anorak
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Pete Lewis
March 20, 2017, 8:37pm Report to Moderator

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Tssc  club shop sells the orig gold colour code  in aerosols

pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Jvvilliams
April 9, 2017, 8:27am Report to Moderator
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Update for those interested: Rocker cover re-shaped, new gasket on and refitted with silicon as advised. Now need to clean up engine bay a bit to be able to see if any further leakage, but overall running pretty well now and enjoying some sunny drives.

The commission number is GA15768 DL as I know some of you were interested in that- if it's an early 1200 and possibly a more rare survivor, how would I go about finding that out?

Next job - sort out the carburettor as the car is running pretty rich.


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JohnD
April 9, 2017, 8:37am Report to Moderator


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Gurus will respond to your Comm.No., but Porter & Williams' "Guide to Restoration" says that 1200 Heralds started at GA1DL and went on to GA249873DL, with the 'Mk.2' at 80001, so not very early, I'd say.
P&W quote "Front discs from October '61" so if you have drums it is early.

John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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Casper
April 9, 2017, 11:40am Report to Moderator


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GA15938 was the first with no bonnet handle, in June 1961.
Looking at other data, my guess would be production May or early June.
Apart from minor details that Bill and Andy might mention it will be a real 'early spec.' car.  Many think the bonnet handle was a 948 only item.

BMIHT can supply build dates, etc., but at a price.
http://www.heritage-motor-cent.....ge-certificates.html

Your car will have a B-30 ZIC type carburettor, probably a 3 or a 5. The number will be stamped on the side of the float bowl, covered in muck.
You may have some problems finding gasket sets, but they are out there, as Ford Anglias used them,
for example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Angllia-105E-997cc-Carburettor-gasket-ZIC-3-/331571216747
See also: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/291390704537 (Jetting info will be wrong)
and http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/SolexCarbs/ZenithSP174.htm

John, the front discs from Oct 1961 was an optional extra, so not a proper dating feature.  They also offered aftermarket conversions.

C.


Herald Anorak
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JohnD
April 9, 2017, 12:32pm Report to Moderator


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AH!

There, I said a guru would be along!
John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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Jvvilliams
April 9, 2017, 7:22pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks Caspar & John.

I checked this morning and it's got front drums. So with it being potentially an early spec, do you think that makes it potentially more valuable? Not that I have any intention of selling, just curious.

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JohnD
April 9, 2017, 8:48pm Report to Moderator


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No.    IMHO.   Only really significant numbers get a premium, and with drums??

Guru Caspar?
JOhn


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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heraldcoupe
April 9, 2017, 9:13pm Report to Moderator

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I've just caught up with this thread, looks like a nice early car. A couple of points I can chip in with:

Drums remained a standard feature on 1200s until the end of production in 1970, they became available as an option in April 1961.

As for the bonnet handle, despite what the parts lists say, they were fitted until at least the GA19xxx range - there are a few anomalies like this in the factory references. It's correct for yours either way, but they carried on longer than people realise.

The valance is without doubt a later replacement. The open slot visible above the numberplate was introduced with the Mk2 chassis in June 1962, but there was a further change around 1966/7 when the corner bulges became less pronounced with a new panel pressing. From what's visible, I'm pretty certian your valance has the flatter corners, so I would say it was  replaced some time after 1966.

Though the car is quite early for a 1200, it's surprising how many truly early features had already disappeared by the time this one was produced. Earlier 1200s had different tail-light chrome surrounds, larger sidelights and (though not visible in the pictures) different rear interior trim in the rear quarters, the latter related to substantial panel differences in the bodyshell. The last point is incredibly rare, I have only ever seen two Heralds built this way, and both totally rotten to beyond saving...

Cheers,
Bill.


Enthusiast and collector of early Heralds.

"The trouble with quotes over the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
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Casper
April 10, 2017, 10:02am Report to Moderator


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Bill will tell you that drum brakes are fine (no experience of them myself), but the shoes are difficult to get hold of.

Your car is a very nice example of an early 1200.  Many of the minor developments (changes and 'improvements') to production had occurred since the 1959 introduction of the Herald, but there were many refinements, production changes and cost cutting measures occurring in the first year or so of the new model.  Yours was built in the first 6 months of production.  I believe that the 1200 was built in the new production hall, and this (for some reason) led to improved build quality.  The 1200 was regarded by the motoring press as a great improvement over the single carbed 948 models, so all this is good.  Your car has many early features that are of interest to aficionados but have little real relevance to most enthusiasts.  The reasons these features were changed as time went on might be that better solutions were found, whether the improvement was performance, cost savings or production reasons.

Some of the things that could be considered as 'bad' points about your car include:
Early, weaker chassis
Engine in its lowest state of tune producing 39 bph, some 18% less than the latest 1200s, but at least at 8:1 CR you probably won't need octane booster or top spec fuel.
Spares availability of some parts is more limited than later models (carb, front brakes, steering rack, rear lenses, etc.)

Unless the car is in concours condition the early features have little bearing on value.  Apart from model type (eg convertible vs saloon) the condition of Heralds is nearly always the factor that determines price.  But there is no reason why the car will not be fun and relatively inexpensive to own and maintain, and practical to drive on a regular basis (motorways may not be too much fun, though).

Good luck sorting out the rich running.  If you need help, PM me.

C.


Herald Anorak
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