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Matt306
February 19, 2017, 9:54pm Report to Moderator

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Just rebuilding three rail box. Main bearing are being changed.
The tip measures 0.49 inches the input shaft hole is 0.75 inch. I brought a new caged bearing from canleys but there is a lot of movement in the shaft, it feels quite sloppy. The previous bearing had failed so there is some pitting on tip and input shaft hole.

I see rimmers do a needle roller from a later box part number 118507 http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID005334 would this be for a lager shaft tip?

Any ideas for getting a bit tighter?


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Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Pete Lewis
February 19, 2017, 10:04pm Report to Moderator

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If the spigot and bore in the stemwheel is showing signs of degradation, then what ever you atempt

wont  last long,   the stemwheel(input shaft) will wag around as its only a single row  ball race
when its located in the flywheel spigot all movement is controlled

but a poor surface finish is not reclaimable by any bearing alternatives

this is the weak design innthese boxes, heavy use and poor or wrong spec oil and these fail

using a 18mm spigot from a dolly is a big upgrade ,  but you have to change main and stem shafts
depending on engine you need a clutch disc  to match the splines

pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Matt306
February 19, 2017, 10:15pm Report to Moderator

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I have another stemwheel in another box, think that bore is better, i'll swap them over.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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nang
February 20, 2017, 4:36am Report to Moderator

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How about metal spraying the shaft and getting it machined ?
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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Matt306
February 20, 2017, 7:23am Report to Moderator

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I was reading about that. Just got to find somewhere which does it


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Pete Lewis
February 20, 2017, 7:49am Report to Moderator

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I had a slave box which had the mainshaft bored and a slug added to replace the worn spigot
the slug was a loose fit in the shaft had moved around and wrecked the input shaft someomes good idea which failed , it also had 1st hub from single rail ,  which wont work so most of the
box ended as scrap.

In the 70s 80s metal spray is a method we used to reclaim shafts for production  
you have to reduce the diameter to get enough  cover and its a pig to grind to a acceptable finish
maybe things have improved over the years ,


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Matt306
February 20, 2017, 11:55am Report to Moderator

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I have two three rail boxes one od and one vanilla flavour. How much movement is there at the tip given MS has a bearing at rear and one on O/D the tip being a tight fit in the annulus bush.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Pete Lewis
February 20, 2017, 1:15pm Report to Moderator

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non od has two bearing on the mainshaft one in the case one in the tail hsg,.  the Od box has the case bearing but the tail is as you say supported in a spigot inside the OD anulus.
in both cases the input shaft will have  the same /some degree of wiggle ,  as its pretty much unsupported until fitted to the engine

there will be some amount of float to the extented unsupported end of both types of mainshaft , just down to its  length and bearing clearances   again its supposed to be supported by the needles inside the input gear
so from the flywheel spigot the stem needles , mainshaft case , tail bearing or OD spigot all by themselves can have some float but when all button up in line theres no
movement allowed .

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Nick Jones
February 20, 2017, 1:23pm Report to Moderator

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Disappointing that the mainshaft tip and input shaft bore are damaged - that box felt way better than the other one we had!

Agree with Pete that it either surface is damaged it will tend to chew up the new bearing quite quickly.  The lowest cost option at this point would be to take the same approach we did with the oilite bush.  I've just found my spare one and happy to send that to you if you like?

It's a very simple job to someone with a decent lathe and that tip will need very little material removing to clean up.  They will need to use modern tipped tools though as it's very hard.  The guy who did mine did it in less than 30 mins and would no doubt be happy to do another if you can't find anyone locally.  Happy to facilitate that if needed.  If the inside of the input shaft is also pitted then that adds a bit of aggro - the bush I have has some spare material on the OD but I don't remember how much.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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glang
February 20, 2017, 1:58pm Report to Moderator

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How many miles have you done with the oilite bush mod Nick? I worry that it wont like the radial load when running the box using the layshaft in 1st, 2nd and 3rd especially as its not going to get much of a fresh supply of oil.....
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cliftyhanger
February 20, 2017, 2:04pm Report to Moderator

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I can't answer for Nick, but my friend Pete has done over 80K with a bush he made. He did cut a scroll in it to feed oil in too, which was simple enough.
That is a GT6 box,fitted to a spitfire, but with a hybrid input shaft (ie chopped GT6 splined end off and welded a spitfire splined section on. NOT a job to undertake unless you really know what you are doing!)


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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glang
February 20, 2017, 2:13pm Report to Moderator

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Hi Clive, do you know if your mate used an oilite bush or phosphor bronze as the 'oil pores' of the former can apparently be affected by machining. Sounds like he knows his way round a bit of metalwork though!
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cliftyhanger
February 20, 2017, 2:17pm Report to Moderator

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I won't see him until the weekend, but will ask then.
Yes, he does, and the chap he works with is another level again. He built a Stanley steamcar replica from scratch. Bizarre to see what is essentially a 1900ish steamcar, tiller steering the lot running around with a 2005 registration on it!
Sorry, I digress!


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Nick Jones
February 20, 2017, 8:39pm Report to Moderator

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Interesting digression.  How the hell did he get a 2005 reg on it - did it need SVA?

Ours has done zero miles so far.  I drove the car into the garage on Saturday evening - maybe 10 metres.  First time the car has moved under it's own power in about 15 years we think.

However, I had recommendations from 3 different sources (including Clive), all of which seemed to have survived a good long time (probably longer than the standard offering).  One of these is definitely an Oilite bush.

Mine is an Oilite bush.  One of the attractions is it's ability to survive periods of intermittent lubrication - questionable lubrication is one major reason why the OE bearings fail.  The later boxes had holes drilled through the gear roots into the bearing bore so the meshing gears forced oil in there.  Don't forget that most of the time the relative movement between input and mainshaft are quite low (at highest when revving the nuts off in 1st gear - something that only occurs briefly and intermittently) and the loads relatively low.  Radial loads will be better distributed with a plain bush IMO, especially as the tendency to "bow" and deflect at the joining point means that the loads on the roller bearings will be concentrated at the ends - something that can usually be seen by the wear patterns.

Oilite material can be machined, however, needs to be machined a high speeds and with sharp tools to avoid "smearing" and partially closing the pores.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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glang
February 20, 2017, 9:05pm Report to Moderator

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ok Nick, sounds good (no pun intended). Oilite is certainly easier to get hold of but do you know what ID and OD tolerances have been used?
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