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Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Engine upgrade advice please
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Casper
December 23, 2016, 10:51am Report to Moderator


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Quoted Text
But with a shorter propshaft,that's all the mods I needed when I fitted a 1500 and overdrive box to my herald.


http://www.canleyclassics.com/technical-archive/propshaft-problems

C.


Herald Anorak
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Sheepy
December 23, 2016, 11:34am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JohnD

No structural mods required.
John


a Friend of ours (me and Dirk) has a herald with a six in it, he had to mod the chassis.
i will ask dirk to chime in and explain as he knows the story about it


Cheers
Shaun

i'm worried that when I die my wife will sell all my car parts for what I told her they were worth!  

67 MK3 spit
42 Chevy cargo truck
Some bikes (not push bikes)
Land Rover series 3 (doing it up to sell)
Belgium (I'm Binglish)
RBRR 2014 'team broom' in the renown!
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Sheepy
December 23, 2016, 11:39am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from rustbuckit2011
Mx5 1.6
And how cool is this--


that does look good! (when finished, as i presume it will be in stainless or alu and not card) i was thinking the same, but the lettering on top of one of the cam covers
the mazda lumps are great, rev like crazy (ferny kept pushing me to rev his higher but i wouldnt) until i got my own and tried it!
engine and box in one go (with a little modification) easier than trying to mate a different box to a different engine
plus i have seen them with carb conversion to make them look even more retro

regards
shaun


Cheers
Shaun

i'm worried that when I die my wife will sell all my car parts for what I told her they were worth!  

67 MK3 spit
42 Chevy cargo truck
Some bikes (not push bikes)
Land Rover series 3 (doing it up to sell)
Belgium (I'm Binglish)
RBRR 2014 'team broom' in the renown!
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Saltddirk
December 23, 2016, 1:06pm Report to Moderator

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That mate of ours had to cut out a slot in the O/S chassis rail (what in UK would be passenger side) to allow the clutch operating cylinder to clear the chassis. Sure about it because I told him that he now had created a stress point, made a square cut top and side and then inversed the cut off so he now has a 3 sided box. (if that makes sense). he should have done so incorporating some Radii. (look at how Triumph dimpled the chassis rails on the spit to sit the GB, no square line in sight)
I believe he used the original mounting points up front
He also had to install a spacer between the prop shaft and the GB. I know I gave him my non OD prop from the spit, but can not remember if it is a OD box. Again he made IMO a hash of it as he just used longer bolts to bolt GB and Prop together with the flange in the middle. Better would have been to use threaded holes and short bolts in and out 45 deg out sync. Not sure if it matters with the kind of power from a Vitesse engine, but if with his set up the bolts work loose there is a longer lever to do damage.

Just my 2 cents, but before modifying you should look at it from all angles


round the bend might be the best place to be.
slightly mad but mostly harmless
RBRR 14 16 
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ferny
December 23, 2016, 2:04pm Report to Moderator

Mr Hoppy!
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Quoted from rustbuckit2011
The shifter shorten is a diy job. Ill put a thread on it in the tech section one day. It is seriously easy- no welding, just 2 cuts, one hole and a bit of spannering.

The mx5 runs the same diff ratio as the herald (4.11) so your speedo will still read true. You will have to jimmy up a cable made from the mazda to herald ends.

I was under the impression that the 13/60 diffs were essentially as strong as the vitesse units, just a different ratio- having said that- I have a Subaru diff so I guess Im just guessing! The vitesse has 159 N.M of torque, the mazda 136 N.M-  torque and weight kill diffs- your car should be lighter and have less torque. Maybe just try to hold back on the burnouts if you can...

Edit-- sorry Ferny you posted while i was typing- logic is no substitute for experience - I'll stand corrected on the diff!


You can't discount age and what's happened during that time either. For all I know my diff was 47 years old when it went! I know of others going shortly after Triumph engines have seen 100bhp.
Subaru is my plan as well. I just need to find the correct parts and at a reasonable price.

Quoted from Sheepy


that does look good! (when finished, as i presume it will be in stainless or alu and not card) i was thinking the same, but the lettering on top of one of the cam covers
the mazda lumps are great, rev like crazy (ferny kept pushing me to rev his higher but i wouldnt) until i got my own and tried it!
engine and box in one go (with a little modification) easier than trying to mate a different box to a different engine
plus i have seen them with carb conversion to make them look even more retro

regards
shaun


I'd only owned it about a week before bring it over to you.


Acclaim - fully working and on the road
13/60 Herald - mx5 powered and other such fun things, legal enough...
Mk1 2000 - it's still alive, just sleeping
Expert 815d - the slug

If in doubt, do up until you hear the crack and then go another 1/4 turn to ensure tightness.
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Nick Jones
December 23, 2016, 2:26pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Saltddirk
That mate of ours had to cut out a slot in the O/S chassis rail (what in UK would be passenger side) to allow the clutch operating cylinder to clear the chassis. Sure about it because I told him that he now had created a stress point, made a square cut top and side and then inversed the cut off so he now has a 3 sided box. (if that makes sense). he should have done so incorporating some Radii. (look at how Triumph dimpled the chassis rails on the spit to sit the GB, no square line in sight)
I believe he used the original mounting points up front
He also had to install a spacer between the prop shaft and the GB. I know I gave him my non OD prop from the spit, but can not remember if it is a OD box. Again he made IMO a hash of it as he just used longer bolts to bolt GB and Prop together with the flange in the middle. Better would have been to use threaded holes and short bolts in and out 45 deg out sync. Not sure if it matters with the kind of power from a Vitesse engine, but if with his set up the bolts work loose there is a longer lever to do damage.

Just my 2 cents, but before modifying you should look at it from all angles


He must have been using a big saloon box not a Vitesse box.  If using a saloon box it is perfectly possible to use the slave cylinder parts from a Sprint and no need to molest the chassis..

It's not the MX5 engine that kills the diff...... it's the drag racing!

Nick



Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Saltddirk
December 23, 2016, 6:45pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Nick Jones


He must have been using a big saloon box not a Vitesse box.  If using a saloon box it is perfectly possible to use the slave cylinder parts from a Sprint and no need to molest the chassis..

It's not the MX5 engine that kills the diff...... it's the drag racing!

Nick


Nick,
You are right, the engine and box came out of a crashed Mk1 IIRC
He  also slotted it in as is, no swapping of components. I am sure he was not aware of the possibility in using a Sprint assy.

Speaking of diff I know he changed it later on because I gave him my old spit diff so he could use the flanges (?) details and memory are a bit hazy (and no that's not due to adult beverages) at the moment)

D




round the bend might be the best place to be.
slightly mad but mostly harmless
RBRR 14 16 
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Saltddirk
December 23, 2016, 6:47pm Report to Moderator

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Oh,
Should have added. He had to install an ugly go-faster style air scoop on the bonnet to clear the new set up...

as you might have noticed I am not a fan of his modification.


round the bend might be the best place to be.
slightly mad but mostly harmless
RBRR 14 16 
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JohnD
December 23, 2016, 8:05pm Report to Moderator


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That would have been because of the inclined engine installation in the saloon.
Canted to the right, the intake manifold was angle so that the carbs were vertical (or horizontal - you know what I mean).
When installed, ebgine vertical in the small chassis, the manifol;d stick sup and fouls the bonnet.
Fitting a Vitesse/GT6 manifold cures .

John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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Nick Jones
December 24, 2016, 11:48am Report to Moderator

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Returning to the OP, as the brief is for a run-around for the wife there've been some fairly OTT suggestions.

For that purpose there's nothing much wrong with a Triumph 4 cylinder in the original pattern.  The Herald 1300 is powerful enough as it comes but it is easy to release a few more ponies with some basic mods (along the lines of bringing up to something more like Mk3 Spitfire spec).  This means that there is no need to mess with the brakes, suspension or gearing although over-drive is always nice to have if it's going to be used on longer journeys.  It's probably also an advantage to have the later 4 synchro gearbox rather than subjecting SWMBO to the crash first gear of the original.

Donors would include
Another Herald 13/60
Spitfire Mk3 or IV (latter will be alot more common and have a 4 synchro gearbox)
early Dolomite or Toledo 1300 (later ones have the single rail gearbox which is not a bad thing apart from needing an odd length propshaft).  These would need the sump swapping.

The easiest route to more grunt (though not much more power) is to use the 1500 engine which is externally identical.  This has a fair bit more torque but is much less keen to rev.  To work properly as a package you need to swap the gearing (diff) to either a 3.89:1 with an overdrive gearbox or a 3.63:1.  The brakes and suspension remain adequate.  The easiest route would be to buy a hopelessly rusty 1500 Spitfire as a donor and swap the mechanicals over as that'll give everything needed bar the propshaft.  1500 Toledo/Dolomites are also possible but need a bit more messing about.

If you still want more then you could turn it into a Vitesse, which is a nice car but more different from a Herald than some might think.  Again, the only viable way to do this properly is with a terminally rusty but mechanically ok Vitesse as a donor as many parts are different.  A Herald with a T2000 lump stuffed into it.......  

To go for a more modern engine the options are
Suzuki 1300 from a SJ413 or Jimny with the 5 speed gearbox.
MX5 engine and box (early 1600 or 1800).  Come as a package and fits without huge effort.  As mentioned above there is at least one running around on twin SUs if you don't fancy injection and all that entails.  Not so powerful as to make retaining the original diff, brakes etc completely daft.
Ford zetec (iron block) plus T9 5 speed.  Been done a quite a few Spitfires now with considerable success and so Heralds should be equally possible.  Unless you pick one of the "little" ones you will be wanting bigger brakes, suspension mods and a diff ratio change.

My personal choice would be the rusty 1500 Spit as a donor route - and make sure I got one with overdrive.  A well sorted 1500 Herald is a very usable car and not so very far from what Triumph intended.


Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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cliftyhanger
December 24, 2016, 12:05pm Report to Moderator

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Nick has left out the other Ford engine choice, the Zetec SE, the all alloy version. An easier fit I think than the Zetec E iron block type (I have the Zetec E in my spitfire) but requires a special bellhousing to fit the type 9 gearbox.

One word of caution, do not underestimate the cost/time/skillset of changing to a modern engine. Not as easy as many make out! I have a T shirt about that all somewhere....

Have to agree with Nick, a 1500 herald is a very good car.....and very simple/quick/easy conversion


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Steve P
December 24, 2016, 1:13pm Report to Moderator
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My thoughts as the owner of a 13/60 convertible Herald which is about to get a slightly modified 1500 and a Vitesse convertible with a modified 2.5 PI engine and Saloon gearbox.

The Herald currently has a 1300 large bearing Spit engine with twin carbs,3.63 diff and single rail O/D gearbox.The car drives very well and is nippy enough and with the modified gearing will cruise at 70 all day.I have built a 1500 just to give it more torque.
I also want to upgrade the brakes to Vitesse spec with 1144 pads as i find these great on the Vitesse.(Too much dust though).

The Vitesse has a big saloon gearbox with J type overdrive and a 3.27 diff with a heavy duty carrier and new CW+P to try and cope with the 150+ bhp it makes.I also did the CV conversion after snapping a drive shaft.
The Vitesse is a lot heavier on the front and my other half wont drive it.

Its great fun with all the power and i have used it on the RBRR and various long distance tours,i fitted the bucket type seats out of a Bond, i find these really comfortable.I used the Vitesse seats in the Herald as these are slightly wider and more comfortable than Herald ones.

Neither have head rests but that doesn`t bother me.

If its a daily for the wife i would definitely stay with a four pot,whether it be Triumph,Mazda,Ford or whatever you fancy fitting in there.
Steve


No. of Triumphs owned..2
No. of Triumphs working..2
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TedTaylor
December 25, 2016, 8:57pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JohnD
A Hammer?  Dear Boy, you'll be using a screwdriver as a chisel next!
John


'ere whats this running down 'ammers for    Gods greatest gift to man - especially big 'uns.

And as for old screwdrivers used as chisels (and some times new ones) God's second greatest gift.



MUT


Mad Uncle Ted!
Growing old is inevitable but growing up is optional.

AFH849B Mk1 2000 period rally replica (under restoration ..... again) First re-built 1991
NAM616G Morris 1800 London Sydney/Monte/World Cup (awaiting restoration)
SCG115G Mk1 PI estate
WDE 76K Mk2 2500 estate (Woodie) RBRR 2014   2016  
LSE Soft Dash Range Rover with Brooklands body kit on LPG (Still for sale)

From the depths of the Forest of Dean....
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esxefi
December 29, 2016, 12:00pm Report to Moderator

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^yes they don't make 'hit through' screwdrivers for nothing you know

http://www.screwfix.com/p/scre.....GtmdECFQIL0wod0fUN0g
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TedTaylor
December 29, 2016, 2:00pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from esxefi
^yes they don't make 'hit through' screwdrivers for nothing you know

http://www.screwfix.com/p/scre.....GtmdECFQIL0wod0fUN0g


Spoil sport

MUT


Mad Uncle Ted!
Growing old is inevitable but growing up is optional.

AFH849B Mk1 2000 period rally replica (under restoration ..... again) First re-built 1991
NAM616G Morris 1800 London Sydney/Monte/World Cup (awaiting restoration)
SCG115G Mk1 PI estate
WDE 76K Mk2 2500 estate (Woodie) RBRR 2014   2016  
LSE Soft Dash Range Rover with Brooklands body kit on LPG (Still for sale)

From the depths of the Forest of Dean....
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