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Vitesse/Herald Bellhousing. Print
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Matt306
December 19, 2016, 10:40pm Report to Moderator

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I acquired a Vitesse OD box today for the output shaft as its an OD box. It came with a bell housing which is alloy and light so much lighter than my cast iron job.

The fitting for the clutch are different and the input shaft on the box is longer, but can this lighter bellhousing be fitted to the Herald 1296 engine? If so has anyone done it and whats needed.

My long term plan is to fit three rail box with D Type OD to the Herald.

And if anyone has an adapter for a D Type OD please could i acquire from you?


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Nick Jones
December 19, 2016, 11:28pm Report to Moderator

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Vitesse bell does not fit a Herald (or Spit).  The input shaft of a the Vitesse 'box is longer and larger than a Herald one so that doesn't fit either.  Some early Heralds (and maybe Spitfires) had alloy bell housings.  They are relatively rare and tend to be fairly pricey now but are wonderfully light compared to the cast iron monstrosity.

The overdrive and adapter plate will be useful and mainshaft from the Vitesse box may be some use dependent on:

- it's not knackered - the mainshaft tip is very often worn.
- Whether you have a Vitesse 1600 3 synchro box or a Vitesse 2L 4 synchro box.  The former can be used with the guts of a 3 synchro Herald box.  The latter would be used with the 4 synchro 3 rail box from a MkIV Spitfire.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

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CP72
December 20, 2016, 9:30am Report to Moderator
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I have just put a repro alloy bellhousing from Bastuck into my Spitfire. Surprisingly it is well made and fits nicely. The Price is €150, which is not much dearer than an original one from the 60's. And it can be used on a single-rail gearbox, too.
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heraldcoupe
December 20, 2016, 9:32am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CP72
I have just put a repro alloy bellhousing from Bastuck into my Spitfire. Surprisingly it is well made and fits nicely.


It always surprises me when Bastuck products are fit for purpose. The lighter bellhousing makes clutch changes a lot less cumbersome, but they tend to trasnsmit a bit more noise,

Cheers,
Bill.


Enthusiast and collector of early Heralds.

"The trouble with quotes over the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
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Nick Jones
December 20, 2016, 1:13pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CP72
I have just put a repro alloy bellhousing from Bastuck into my Spitfire. Surprisingly it is well made and fits nicely. The Price is €150, which is not much dearer than an original one from the 60's. And it can be used on a single-rail gearbox, too.


I wondered about mentioning those but as I know of two people who've had quite major dimensional problems with them I decided not to.  To be fair the problems were a few years ago.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
December 20, 2016, 9:58pm Report to Moderator

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I have a spare Herald three rail box
This box came from a Bond Equipe the S/N starts HC it has the reverse switch on the top, might utilise that! The main bearings in the box are shot, I wouldnt use them anyway.

Here are the internals;




The main shaft will go off for a sandblast to clean it up.


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Nick Jones
December 20, 2016, 10:55pm Report to Moderator

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That's a 4 synchro box.  Can't see the main shaft tip (where it fits into the input shaft) properly, but what I can see looks a bit iffy?

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
December 20, 2016, 11:09pm Report to Moderator

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Can I use the main shaft with my herald box, or use the herald input shaft with this 4 synchro box, 4 Synchros has to be better than three!


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Pete Lewis
December 21, 2016, 12:07pm Report to Moderator

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in general yes , there were some  tooth profile changes in the evolution.
the mainshaft is common for 4sync 6 or 4 cyl  being tkc923 from memory.
if the herald input shaft has the correct tooth profile and ratio to the cluster then you can swap it
if it whines its a profile mismatch .
Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
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Matt306
December 21, 2016, 5:03pm Report to Moderator

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I'll swap the input shaft for the three synchro herald into the four synchro box with the lay shaft gear and other gubbins and see how it fits.

Then just bang the OD on the back simples


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Nick Jones
December 21, 2016, 11:02pm Report to Moderator

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I didn't think it was possible to mix and match parts between 3 and 4 synchro 'boxes?  Could be wrong as I've never tried it.  Certainly you can't mix and match gears between 4 and 6 cylinder cars as the ratios are different.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

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Matt306
December 22, 2016, 9:59pm Report to Moderator

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i'll let you know Nick


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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 12:34pm Report to Moderator

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Has anyone got a main shaft out of a 3rail box? The process is different for a standard box


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Nick Jones
January 4, 2017, 1:06pm Report to Moderator

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3 rail 4 synchro or 3 synchro?

We have a complete 3 synchro gearbox less OD, adaptor plate and remote here.  I've not dismantled it so can't be sure of condition, but the play on the input shaft seems reasonable and all gears are selectable.  Some light surface rust on the protruding shafts but nothing serious.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 1:39pm Report to Moderator

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4synchro. I have a spare non od three synchronized box. The main shaft is a doddle to remove can't figure the technique on these 4 synchros


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Nick Jones
January 4, 2017, 7:29pm Report to Moderator

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Ah, understand now........

Process is:
- Drain oil
- remove selector housing/box top
- remove bell housing
- remove OD & adaptor housing
- Remove fiddly wire snap ring from the behind the OD pump cam and remove the cam.  Key can stay where it is if tight, but otherwise remove for safekeeping.
- Remove layshaft.  It pushes straight out rearwards.  Best done using a bit of dowel/tube/bar or old, cut-down layshaft, which is just a couple of mm shorter than the laygear cluster.  This keeps all the rollers in place.  Once the shaft is out the laygear cluster will drop to the bottom of the 'box.
- With a soft drift, tap the outer race of the input shaft bearing forward, until it and the input shaft come out of the front.  Recover the needle roller set and 4th gear synchro.
- Remove the circlip and spacer from the mainshaft behind the rear main bearing.
- What you now have to do is to tap the mainshaft forward, through the bearing, about 20mm until it's off the shoulder.  Note that at this point the 3/4 synchro hub is loose (but not enough room to remove it) and as you are bashing things it will try to come apart, firing springs and balls about the place.  It is also possible that the 1/2 synchro will manage to find enough space to loose it's balls as well.  You may wish to tie everything together with a few turns of copper wire to prevent this.
- You can then tap the bearing backwards and out of the casing.  At this point you've got room to angle the mainshaft assembly and withdraw it from the casing.

I always find it tempting to try removing the big spring clip from the outside of the rear main bearing and tap the whole lot forwards.  You can do this, but having done it you'll then find there isn't quite enough room to wriggle it all out and you'll have to put it back how it was and start again.

Hope this helps

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 8:15pm Report to Moderator

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Cheers Nick, I took the big spring clip off the out put bearing and tapped it through. Found out it doesn't work. The Three synchros are slightly easier as it doesnt have that big gear at the rear.

Plan is to use the input from my three synchro with the 4 synchro box and internals.

I need an adapter plate and rear out put shaft from the OD plus the gear shift. I guess the wiring I can make myself with a relay for the 30amp shift on to the solenoid. The circuit i suppose is a simple as an on off (in out) in the dash area, another switch in series which mounts on a L shape bracket on the top of the box with the shift engages when in third/fourth a push to close switch should do. This can then fire a relay triggering the solenoid... Or am i wildly off, i haven't studied any contemporary wiring!

I plan to get a normal prop and have it professionally shortened and balanced.


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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 9:26pm Report to Moderator

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got it out now...


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Pete Lewis
January 5, 2017, 2:28pm Report to Moderator

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for re assembly , the 1st gear has a split collet thrust washer , if you try to assy the box in a horizontal  mount the split collets will fall out every time t drift the bearing back in and the gear jumps from the impacts the best way is mount a old dummy input shaft vertical ina vice ( or a hard wood with a spigot location hole ) and lower the case  the installed assembled shaft down onto the dummy and tap the  bearing down the shaft into the case with the other pair of hands ( like you may need help holding all this)   then the gear stays down with gravity and the blasted collets dont fly to the bottom of the box

this all sounds harder that reality but will work out first time ,  do it horizontal , and be prepared to repeat an curse many times

make a dummy layshaft just the length of the inside case faces this holds all the needles and thrust washers in place till you lift the cluster, push in the shaft to push out the dummy when all aligned ,  

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Matt306
January 5, 2017, 2:58pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the advice  I'll book mark this


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Matt306
January 8, 2017, 9:01pm Report to Moderator

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Matt306
January 8, 2017, 10:02pm Report to Moderator

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Got it to bits.. the main shaft tip could be worn as its ridged.



I have read about sleeving and bushes  ( http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1303074960/s-all/ ) but am at a loss now. A new one is £147 and want to avoid this cost. The box will ultimately be used on a Herald 1300 so not too much power.


Any ideas.

passed the 1hour time for edits.


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Nick Jones
January 8, 2017, 11:26pm Report to Moderator

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Can't see the mainshaft tip very clearly in any of your pics.  But if it is anything less than perfect it'll just chew itself up more.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/7107-chriss-mkiv-basket-case/page-3

Posts 53 to 68.  Didn't cost much though it doubtless helps that I know a number of machine shops.  So far untested but I know others who have done this with great success.

You do know that you won't be able to use the Herald input shaft with the Vitesse gear set don't you?  The gears have different numbers of teeth.  I'm pretty sure that very few parts are interchangeable between the 3 synchro and 4 synchro 'boxes though not certain as I gave up with 3 synchro 'boxes about 30 years ago ( )

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 1:24pm Report to Moderator

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I had head the Herald input shaft wouldn't work with thus box. I have a spare herald box I can play with though just to be sure. I like the light bell housing I have with this box so I am not adverse to changing clutch and flywheel if that's all it takes?
I suppose the question should be what have you done to get a 3rail 4synchro box fit a 1300Herald


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cliftyhanger
January 9, 2017, 3:46pm Report to Moderator

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I thinkit is very tricky to get a vitesse box/bellhousing to fit a herald
A friend did it (well spit, but identical issues) by cutting the input shafts off both gearboxes, and welding the herald one to the vitesse box. I said that quickly, but it was a VERY well executed job, done by somebody who does welding and engineering for a living, assisted by somebody who built a replica 1903 steamcar from scratch (and I mean scratch) "Experts" have told him it wouldn't work or last. 80K later still no issues (and it has a bush in the mainshaft tip)

In all honesty, you are better off getting hold of the correct gearbox.
A 4 synchro spitIV gearbox is a staright swap for the herald one. Apart from prop flange......


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Dogsbody47uk
January 9, 2017, 3:52pm Report to Moderator
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3 rail, 4 synchro box into a 13/60 is relatively easy. The box will go straight in, it's the propshaft that needs modifying. It needs the round, larger bolt yoke fitting to the prop at the gearbox end to match the 4 synchro gearbox's output flange. I cannot remember whether it needs shortening, but I think Canley Classics Technical data has the info. Cheers, Dave.


First Triumph: 200cc Tiger Cub. Followed by in no particular order, 350 and 500 Royal Enfield Bullet, Herald 1200, Herald 13/60, Mini 1275 GT, Vitesse 2L convertible, Audi 80, Audi 80 Sport, Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, Triumph 2000, Mk 2 Estate, Fiat Tipo, Fiat Stilo, Fiat Uno, Peugeuot Turbo Diesel(yuk), Lancia HPE 2000ie (wow! a dream!) So far 3 Heralds and My fourth Vitesse in the garage. I may have forgotten some... It's my age.. Oh , Honda 400 four.. Terrifying! And the 2 Renault 5s. Oh, and the Ford Granada 3 litre estate..I think that's the lot.
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Mark Hammond
January 9, 2017, 4:59pm Report to Moderator

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I think that I have done this before by fitting the Vitesse backplate to the 4 cylinder block but I cannot remember if I had to shorten or machine down the mainshaft tip, (it was 40 years ago)......

What I do remember was that the ratios were hideously wrong for the power output and it wasn't a satisfactory swap.  IIRC it was a 4 synchro 'box from a 2 Litre MKl Vitesse (non overdrive) into a 1200 (39bhp).  You're better off sourcing a 4 cylinder/4 synchro MKlV Spitfire 'box.

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 5:35pm Report to Moderator

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As  I have a three rail three synchro box I will compare and contrast the input shaft sizes. I have two opinions one where it will fit another where it won't.


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Mark Hammond
January 9, 2017, 5:58pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Matt306
As  I have a three rail three synchro box I will compare and contrast the input shaft sizes. I have two opinions one where it will fit another where it won't.


It can be made to fit, I've done that, but once it is fitted the ratios aren't really useable with the Herald engine.

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 9:04pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Mark Hammond


It can be made to fit, I've done that, but once it is fitted the ratios aren't really useable with the Herald engine.

Mark


Is it a struggle to get going? I have a 3.89  diff on the rear already. Would a OD make any difference to the ratio issue?

The box is marked HC so for a vitesse. Could I use the main shaft with my 3 synchros herald box  (The answer will almost certainly be no, just checking).

Failing that could I use the main shaft from a HC box in a spit 4 synchro box prefixed FH.


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Mark Hammond
January 9, 2017, 9:25pm Report to Moderator

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Not sure what impact that diff would make, or not.  I doubt whether the components within the 4 and 6 cylinder 'boxes are interchangeable.  Concensus of opinion suggests not.

M.


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 9:31pm Report to Moderator

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Hmmm what was the effect of the vitesse box in the herald?


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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 9:58pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Nick Jones
Can't see the mainshaft tip very clearly in any of your pics.  But if it is anything less than perfect it'll just chew itself up more.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/7107-chriss-mkiv-basket-case/page-3

Posts 53 to 68.  Didn't cost much though it doubtless helps that I know a number of machine shops.  So far untested but I know others who have done this with great success.

You do know that you won't be able to use the Herald input shaft with the Vitesse gear set don't you?  The gears have different numbers of teeth.  I'm pretty sure that very few parts are interchangeable between the 3 synchro and 4 synchro 'boxes though not certain as I gave up with 3 synchro 'boxes about 30 years ago ( )

Nick


Interesting solution to the worn tip. Did you press on the bush after the synchros went on saw you had a problem with it! What size bush did you use?

I need to know where i am going though. I have a Vitesse box, which can be made to fit but the ratios are poor for a 1300 engine.

I have a 3synchro 3 rail box which fits but needs a different shaft for the OD, not sure which box from though... all in all agggghh... I blame myself for thinking it would be simple!



Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Nick Jones
January 9, 2017, 9:59pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Matt306


Is it a struggle to get going? I have a 3.89  diff on the rear already. Would a OD make any difference to the ratio issue?

The box is marked HC so for a vitesse. Could I use the main shaft with my 3 synchros herald box  (The answer will almost certainly be no, just checking).

Failing that could I use the main shaft from a HC box in a spit 4 synchro box prefixed FH.


Vitesse 1st and 2nd gear are a bit tall for a 1300 and hill-starts give the (rather small) clutch a good hiding.

I think I said this earlier but you can use the HC mainshaft in a 1300 MkIV Spit box, so you could source a MkIV 1300 non OD box and convert it with the HC mainshaft using the the OD and adaptor from the Vitesse (Vitesse OD may have a higher running pressure than the Spit one, but doesn't really matter).

Broadly speaking, many of the components are interchangeable between 4 and 6 cylinder boxes - apart from the gears themselves as the ratios are different.  There is even some interchangeability between single rail and three rail.  Plenty of "gotchas" too!

You cannot use the HC mainshaft with the original 3 synchro Herald box.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Nick Jones
January 9, 2017, 10:09pm Report to Moderator

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Posts: 9,930
Posts Per Day: 2.21
Quoted from Matt306


Interesting solution to the worn tip. Did you press on the bush after the synchros went on saw you had a problem with it! What size bush did you use?

I need to know where i am going though. I have a Vitesse box, which can be made to fit but the ratios are poor for a 1300 engine.

I have a 3synchro 3 rail box which fits but needs a different shaft for the OD, not sure which box from though... all in all agggghh... I blame myself for thinking it would be simple!



Yes bush has to go on last as it is just (0.15mm!) too big to allow the synchros hub on it.  I started with an oilite bush 3/8" x 3/4" x 1" (P/No. 580894 I think).  All the dimensions got changed though.  The guy did it in about 30 mins flat, though I did have to pull it off again and shorten it a bit - my fault as I hadn't thought it through properly.  

Your 3 rail, 3 synchro box would need the main shaft from a Mk1, Mk2 or Mk3 Spitfire OD box.  Possibly a Vitesse 1600 box also though I'm not sure about that one.  As I said earlier we do have a complete 3 synchro box OD box here less the OD, adapter plate and remote.  Do you actually have the OD and adapter plate from the Vitesse 'box?

Nick



Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 10, 2017, 9:39am Report to Moderator

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Posts: 770
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I have a dtype od off a rootes car I need another annulus for a triumph to make it work from a scrap od. Got to rebuild it anyway so no worries on doing that. If you have a three synchro box with od shaft it sounds like I am in need of one.
I am going to source the adapter plate locally if one doesn't pop up on eBay. No huge rush on this want it complete by 2018...


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Vitesse/Herald Bellhousing.

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