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Vitesse/Herald Bellhousing. Print
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Nick Jones
January 4, 2017, 7:29pm Report to Moderator

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Ah, understand now........

Process is:
- Drain oil
- remove selector housing/box top
- remove bell housing
- remove OD & adaptor housing
- Remove fiddly wire snap ring from the behind the OD pump cam and remove the cam.  Key can stay where it is if tight, but otherwise remove for safekeeping.
- Remove layshaft.  It pushes straight out rearwards.  Best done using a bit of dowel/tube/bar or old, cut-down layshaft, which is just a couple of mm shorter than the laygear cluster.  This keeps all the rollers in place.  Once the shaft is out the laygear cluster will drop to the bottom of the 'box.
- With a soft drift, tap the outer race of the input shaft bearing forward, until it and the input shaft come out of the front.  Recover the needle roller set and 4th gear synchro.
- Remove the circlip and spacer from the mainshaft behind the rear main bearing.
- What you now have to do is to tap the mainshaft forward, through the bearing, about 20mm until it's off the shoulder.  Note that at this point the 3/4 synchro hub is loose (but not enough room to remove it) and as you are bashing things it will try to come apart, firing springs and balls about the place.  It is also possible that the 1/2 synchro will manage to find enough space to loose it's balls as well.  You may wish to tie everything together with a few turns of copper wire to prevent this.
- You can then tap the bearing backwards and out of the casing.  At this point you've got room to angle the mainshaft assembly and withdraw it from the casing.

I always find it tempting to try removing the big spring clip from the outside of the rear main bearing and tap the whole lot forwards.  You can do this, but having done it you'll then find there isn't quite enough room to wriggle it all out and you'll have to put it back how it was and start again.

Hope this helps

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 8:15pm Report to Moderator

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Cheers Nick, I took the big spring clip off the out put bearing and tapped it through. Found out it doesn't work. The Three synchros are slightly easier as it doesnt have that big gear at the rear.

Plan is to use the input from my three synchro with the 4 synchro box and internals.

I need an adapter plate and rear out put shaft from the OD plus the gear shift. I guess the wiring I can make myself with a relay for the 30amp shift on to the solenoid. The circuit i suppose is a simple as an on off (in out) in the dash area, another switch in series which mounts on a L shape bracket on the top of the box with the shift engages when in third/fourth a push to close switch should do. This can then fire a relay triggering the solenoid... Or am i wildly off, i haven't studied any contemporary wiring!

I plan to get a normal prop and have it professionally shortened and balanced.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Matt306
January 4, 2017, 9:26pm Report to Moderator

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got it out now...


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Pete Lewis
January 5, 2017, 2:28pm Report to Moderator

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for re assembly , the 1st gear has a split collet thrust washer , if you try to assy the box in a horizontal  mount the split collets will fall out every time t drift the bearing back in and the gear jumps from the impacts the best way is mount a old dummy input shaft vertical ina vice ( or a hard wood with a spigot location hole ) and lower the case  the installed assembled shaft down onto the dummy and tap the  bearing down the shaft into the case with the other pair of hands ( like you may need help holding all this)   then the gear stays down with gravity and the blasted collets dont fly to the bottom of the box

this all sounds harder that reality but will work out first time ,  do it horizontal , and be prepared to repeat an curse many times

make a dummy layshaft just the length of the inside case faces this holds all the needles and thrust washers in place till you lift the cluster, push in the shaft to push out the dummy when all aligned ,  

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Matt306
January 5, 2017, 2:58pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the advice  I'll book mark this


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Matt306
January 8, 2017, 9:01pm Report to Moderator

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Posts: 770
Posts Per Day: 0.29


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Matt306
January 8, 2017, 10:02pm Report to Moderator

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Got it to bits.. the main shaft tip could be worn as its ridged.



I have read about sleeving and bushes  ( http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1303074960/s-all/ ) but am at a loss now. A new one is £147 and want to avoid this cost. The box will ultimately be used on a Herald 1300 so not too much power.


Any ideas.

passed the 1hour time for edits.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Nick Jones
January 8, 2017, 11:26pm Report to Moderator

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Can't see the mainshaft tip very clearly in any of your pics.  But if it is anything less than perfect it'll just chew itself up more.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/7107-chriss-mkiv-basket-case/page-3

Posts 53 to 68.  Didn't cost much though it doubtless helps that I know a number of machine shops.  So far untested but I know others who have done this with great success.

You do know that you won't be able to use the Herald input shaft with the Vitesse gear set don't you?  The gears have different numbers of teeth.  I'm pretty sure that very few parts are interchangeable between the 3 synchro and 4 synchro 'boxes though not certain as I gave up with 3 synchro 'boxes about 30 years ago ( )

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 1:24pm Report to Moderator

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I had head the Herald input shaft wouldn't work with thus box. I have a spare herald box I can play with though just to be sure. I like the light bell housing I have with this box so I am not adverse to changing clutch and flywheel if that's all it takes?
I suppose the question should be what have you done to get a 3rail 4synchro box fit a 1300Herald


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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cliftyhanger
January 9, 2017, 3:46pm Report to Moderator

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I thinkit is very tricky to get a vitesse box/bellhousing to fit a herald
A friend did it (well spit, but identical issues) by cutting the input shafts off both gearboxes, and welding the herald one to the vitesse box. I said that quickly, but it was a VERY well executed job, done by somebody who does welding and engineering for a living, assisted by somebody who built a replica 1903 steamcar from scratch (and I mean scratch) "Experts" have told him it wouldn't work or last. 80K later still no issues (and it has a bush in the mainshaft tip)

In all honesty, you are better off getting hold of the correct gearbox.
A 4 synchro spitIV gearbox is a staright swap for the herald one. Apart from prop flange......


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Dogsbody47uk
January 9, 2017, 3:52pm Report to Moderator
1971 13/60 saloon and 1971 vitesse mk 2 saloon
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3 rail, 4 synchro box into a 13/60 is relatively easy. The box will go straight in, it's the propshaft that needs modifying. It needs the round, larger bolt yoke fitting to the prop at the gearbox end to match the 4 synchro gearbox's output flange. I cannot remember whether it needs shortening, but I think Canley Classics Technical data has the info. Cheers, Dave.


First Triumph: 200cc Tiger Cub. Followed by in no particular order, 350 and 500 Royal Enfield Bullet, Herald 1200, Herald 13/60, Mini 1275 GT, Vitesse 2L convertible, Audi 80, Audi 80 Sport, Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, Triumph 2000, Mk 2 Estate, Fiat Tipo, Fiat Stilo, Fiat Uno, Peugeuot Turbo Diesel(yuk), Lancia HPE 2000ie (wow! a dream!) So far 3 Heralds and My fourth Vitesse in the garage. I may have forgotten some... It's my age.. Oh , Honda 400 four.. Terrifying! And the 2 Renault 5s. Oh, and the Ford Granada 3 litre estate..I think that's the lot.
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Mark Hammond
January 9, 2017, 4:59pm Report to Moderator

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I think that I have done this before by fitting the Vitesse backplate to the 4 cylinder block but I cannot remember if I had to shorten or machine down the mainshaft tip, (it was 40 years ago)......

What I do remember was that the ratios were hideously wrong for the power output and it wasn't a satisfactory swap.  IIRC it was a 4 synchro 'box from a 2 Litre MKl Vitesse (non overdrive) into a 1200 (39bhp).  You're better off sourcing a 4 cylinder/4 synchro MKlV Spitfire 'box.

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 5:35pm Report to Moderator

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As  I have a three rail three synchro box I will compare and contrast the input shaft sizes. I have two opinions one where it will fit another where it won't.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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Mark Hammond
January 9, 2017, 5:58pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Matt306
As  I have a three rail three synchro box I will compare and contrast the input shaft sizes. I have two opinions one where it will fit another where it won't.


It can be made to fit, I've done that, but once it is fitted the ratios aren't really useable with the Herald engine.

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
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Matt306
January 9, 2017, 9:04pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Mark Hammond


It can be made to fit, I've done that, but once it is fitted the ratios aren't really useable with the Herald engine.

Mark


Is it a struggle to get going? I have a 3.89  diff on the rear already. Would a OD make any difference to the ratio issue?

The box is marked HC so for a vitesse. Could I use the main shaft with my 3 synchros herald box  (The answer will almost certainly be no, just checking).

Failing that could I use the main shaft from a HC box in a spit 4 synchro box prefixed FH.


Worcestershire Area Organiser search Facebook for Club Triumph Worcester
Triumph 13/60 1970 Convertible  first car restoration, many botches much learnt... Now back MOTd and Taxed... 2016 RBRR COMPLETE
1974 Spitfire Mk IV in Yellow and Rust... for restoration
Triumph 1000cc 1991 Daytona got to go to pay for Yellow Peril
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