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martin
January 3, 2005, 2:25pm Report to Moderator


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can anyone shed some light on the difference between the mk1 vitesse engine and the mk2 engine?
i'm part way through rebuliding a 1968 vitesse which i purchased in bits
i have 3 short engines
only one of which belongs a vitesse and a mk1 at that the other 2 are from the 2000's
do all vitesse engines have long studs one side and short the other?


now got my long term 1968 vitesse mk2 project on the road, .........contact me: martin.m3mje@btinternet.com http://m3mje.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
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timbancroft61
January 3, 2005, 6:15pm Report to Moderator

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The main difference between the mk.1 and mk. 2 engine is the cylinder head and the camshaft that is used, the later engine breathes much better and the camshaft has more duration.The mk. 2 lump uses cyl. head studs of equal length. Not sure if the waterways and studs on a mk.1 lump line up with a mk.2 head.
The cubic capacity of the engines are the same.
The crank from a 2000 engine will not fit into a Vitesse gearbox as it is too long and will push the flywheel/clutch up against the gearbox bellhousing.
The mk.2 lump running with a balanced crank and lightened flywheel is a lovely smooth engine, (For smoothness the 1600 Vitesse six engine must be the best owing to its small stroke, however the head does not breathe very well- therby difficult to tune for power).
The Triumph six cylinder engine has got to be one of the best pushrod engines made, however heavy it is! Great noise from 4,000rpm- is there anything better!
As you are building a MK.1 keep with the vitesse mk.1 engine, check engine no.s to ensure you have a mk.1 2.0l engine- Vitesse  mk1- HC1 running forward, Vitesse mk.2 HC 50,001 running forward, GT6 mk.1 KC1 running forward, GT6 MK.2 KC50,001running forward. I think GT6 mk.3 engines run KE 1 onwards. Triumph 2000 saloons: mk.1 MB1, 2500 Pi CR1, 2000 mk.2 ME1, '74  onwards ML1, 2500Pi MN1, '74 onwards MG1, 2500carbs MM1, 2500S MM onwards.
Weirdly the 2.0l mk.1 had a compression ratio of 9.5:1, whereas mk.2s had 9.25:1, the last of the GT6 mk.3 had 9.0:1. The big saloon mk.1 had a comp. ratio of 8.5:1or 9.0:1, mk.2 8.8:1 or 9.25:1.
Blimey!
Nicked all the above from GT6/Vitesse and 200/2500 Std. Triumph workshop manulas.


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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Raider
January 3, 2005, 6:19pm Report to Moderator

Martin Randle.
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Quoted from timbancroft61, posted January 3, 2005, 6:15pm at here
The Triumph six cylinder engine has got to be one of the best pushrod engines made, however heavy it is! Great noise from 4,000rpm- is there anything better!



Oh no, there he goes again
6cyl engine, best ever blah blah blah 



Martin Randle Pendle and Pennine Area Organiser, CT Northern Representative
https://www.facebook.com/TheBorderRaiders/
http://raidertr7.blogspot.com
1969 Triumph 2000 Mk2 saloon
1977 Triumph TR7 16V rally car
1982 Triumph TR7 DHC
1987 Rover SD1 3500EFI VDP
1992 Mini Mayfair (Mrs R's)
1992 Rover 214i
1995 Rover 214 SEi



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timbancroft61
January 3, 2005, 6:54pm Report to Moderator

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Damned right!
Umm! Lets see:
TR7 4 pot: Loads of probs with water pumps and head gaskets, needs head opening up to make power and some big carbs lobbed on the side, sounds laboured over 4,000rpm. Inherent problems with water pump design, critical that anti freeze is used, do not overheat as head distorts, which is handy as the water pumps crap and will not circulate the coolant. Important not to rev past 5,000 otherwise expect to see con rods coming out the side of the block, no point anyrate as no power avail and it sounds awful.
Six pot: Problems with thrush washers dropping out, heavy engine, waterways in block can fir up. Strong engine that keeps coming back for more, is very easy to build and tune and sounds great. 2.0L loves revs!
No contest really, this is proved by the amount of TR7 owners who sling V8's into their cars. Shame it took swedish engineers to realise the Slant 4 engines capabilities!


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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Raider
January 3, 2005, 6:57pm Report to Moderator

Martin Randle.
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Took your time Mr B didn't you?

I'll leave this thread alone now I have wound you up and it can go back on topic


Martin Randle Pendle and Pennine Area Organiser, CT Northern Representative
https://www.facebook.com/TheBorderRaiders/
http://raidertr7.blogspot.com
1969 Triumph 2000 Mk2 saloon
1977 Triumph TR7 16V rally car
1982 Triumph TR7 DHC
1987 Rover SD1 3500EFI VDP
1992 Mini Mayfair (Mrs R's)
1992 Rover 214i
1995 Rover 214 SEi



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timbancroft61
January 3, 2005, 7:01pm Report to Moderator

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Can't think that i need to say more! Gotta go as of to the Gatwick Area meeting in the GT6.


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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martin
January 3, 2005, 9:08pm Report to Moderator


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ok right i know that my mk2 vitesse that i am rebuilding did indeed have a triumph 2000 engine as i have just checked the v5. it also had an o/d box?
does that mean it could be a 2000 o/d box?
would the prop fit?
i know that this car never had overdrive in it's origanal state by the vin no.
i do however know that i have some mk1 parts which belong another car.
thank for the help so far.


now got my long term 1968 vitesse mk2 project on the road, .........contact me: martin.m3mje@btinternet.com http://m3mje.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
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timbancroft61
January 4, 2005, 12:03am Report to Moderator

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I presume that the box you have taken out of the car is the one we are discussing. To fit a saloon box some cutting and shutting of the chassis and bulkhead will be needed, as well as propshaft work.
If you have a Vitesse/GT6 box in her you will have a Vitesse/GT6 crank fitted.
Way to tell if Vitesse box or big saloon box: Which side is the clutch slave cylinder fitted, if up on the RHS of the bellhousing its a Vitesse box, down on the LHS it will be a saloon box.
If a saloon box I'd be tempted to keep her in there, as so much stronger, however it does weigh more, also Vitesse box has close ratio gears wheras the saloon does not- I think?Obviously not original as well, I have to rebuild my GT6 box  every 5 years.
Dave Picton of Picton Sportscars swears by the big saloon box, his rapid royal blue Spit fitted with a GT6 engine has one fitted and he gives the thing hell!


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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martin
January 4, 2005, 6:02am Report to Moderator


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thanks for the help. looks like this is turning into a very interesting jigsaw.




now got my long term 1968 vitesse mk2 project on the road, .........contact me: martin.m3mje@btinternet.com http://m3mje.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
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andycon67
October 16, 2017, 9:27am Report to Moderator


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Quoted from timbancroft61
The main difference between the mk.1 and mk. 2 engine is the cylinder head and the camshaft that is used, the later engine breathes much better and the camshaft has more duration.The mk. 2 lump uses cyl. head studs of equal length. Not sure if the waterways and studs on a mk.1 lump line up with a mk.2 head.
The cubic capacity of the engines are the same.
The crank from a 2000 engine will not fit into a Vitesse gearbox as it is too long and will push the flywheel/clutch up against the gearbox bellhousing.
The mk.2 lump running with a balanced crank and lightened flywheel is a lovely smooth engine, (For smoothness the 1600 Vitesse six engine must be the best owing to its small stroke, however the head does not breathe very well- therby difficult to tune for power).
The Triumph six cylinder engine has got to be one of the best pushrod engines made, however heavy it is! Great noise from 4,000rpm- is there anything better!
As you are building a MK.1 keep with the vitesse mk.1 engine, check engine no.s to ensure you have a mk.1 2.0l engine- Vitesse  mk1- HC1 running forward, Vitesse mk.2 HC 50,001 running forward, GT6 mk.1 KC1 running forward, GT6 MK.2 KC50,001running forward. I think GT6 mk.3 engines run KE 1 onwards. Triumph 2000 saloons: mk.1 MB1, 2500 Pi CR1, 2000 mk.2 ME1, '74  onwards ML1, 2500Pi MN1, '74 onwards MG1, 2500carbs MM1, 2500S MM onwards.
Weirdly the 2.0l mk.1 had a compression ratio of 9.5:1, whereas mk.2s had 9.25:1, the last of the GT6 mk.3 had 9.0:1. The big saloon mk.1 had a comp. ratio of 8.5:1or 9.0:1, mk.2 8.8:1 or 9.25:1.
Blimey!
Nicked all the above from GT6/Vitesse and 200/2500 Std. Triumph workshop manulas.


So Mk2 Vit engine into a 2000 how will that work ?
A saloon box, 2000 flywheel or Vit flywheel? Or will it need a 2000 crank and how do we know if it is long or short backed ?

Andy


Andy Connor from Barnsley

Herald 13/60 soon to be [color=blue][/color][img][/img][img][/img][img][/img]on the road i hope!
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andy thompson
October 16, 2017, 10:01am Report to Moderator

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Mk1 2000 engine out of a saloon will have a long back crank - same length as a Mk1 PI or TR5 - it is 5/8" longer. 0.625"

All GT6 / Vitesse and Mk2 2000 saloon will have a short back crank.

I have fitted a Vitesse flywheel to a 2000 saloon but you need a Dolomite 1850 thrust bearing carrier (with fork slippers modded slightly - thinned down on the non thrust side) to get the extra 0.625"

That or find a late Mk1 2000 crank  

I think the very early GT6 had the 2" mains crank ?? Not sure when Vitesse went 2 litre - was it when they were still on 2" mains ?


Andy Thompson, Perth WA So many cars so little time

1965 Mk1 2000 2.7PI - broken engine   awaiting steel crank and block prep
1969 TR6 PI Signal Red
1970 Mk2 2.5PI Estate Wedgewood
1972 Stag - engine build in progress
1973 Mk2 2100 EFI Howling mad Daily Driver.
2002 Land Rover Disco TD5��- rattle , rattle, sip, sip��

http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.com
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andy thompson
October 16, 2017, 11:23am Report to Moderator

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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jp2A.....G-20120909-00210.jpg


http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.se/2012/09/engine-swap-over-part-4.html

This details how I fitted a Mk2 Vitesse flywheel to a 2000 saloon Mk2 crank

You can also just fit a standard Mk2 saloon flywheel but they are HEAVY


Andy Thompson, Perth WA So many cars so little time

1965 Mk1 2000 2.7PI - broken engine   awaiting steel crank and block prep
1969 TR6 PI Signal Red
1970 Mk2 2.5PI Estate Wedgewood
1972 Stag - engine build in progress
1973 Mk2 2100 EFI Howling mad Daily Driver.
2002 Land Rover Disco TD5��- rattle , rattle, sip, sip��

http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.com
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RobPearce
October 16, 2017, 11:32am Report to Moderator

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I think Tim's wrong on the camshaft, and nobody ever notices the crankshaft change fairly early in Mk1 production (except Andy, it seems). But late Mk1 to Mk2 bottom end very similar, different head.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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Nick Jones
October 16, 2017, 5:55pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from RobPearce
I think Tim's wrong on the camshaft, and nobody ever notices the crankshaft change fairly early in Mk1 production (except Andy, it seems). But late Mk1 to Mk2 bottom end very similar, different head.


True.  If you drill and tap the block for the bigger studs you can even fit the Mk2 head.

If you want/need to put a Vitesse engine in a 2000 you could just use a Mk2 2000 flywheel, though it weighs as much as a small moon so Andy's method is better.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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JohnD
October 16, 2017, 5:59pm Report to Moderator


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As any fule kno, a straight six is inherently the best balanced engine, being perfectly blanced both in primnary and secondary vibration.
The Triumph versions, unlike some larger editions (Jag 4.2) with three, also benefitted by having either twin carb that had exactly even intake pulses, or Pi.

The 2L is a smooth engine, with great possibilities for tuning, that will withstand extraordinary revving, unlike the 2.5L.
John

PS, Yes 12Kg (!) 2000/2.5 flywheel;  the Vitesse one is 9, and can be reduced to 6, safely and without a loss of stability (see above)  J.


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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